D&D 5E A different take on Alignment

[Helldritch]

Read the novelizations for the films, and you're wrong.

Like literally look at the above examples of LE. Look at the description I gave you for LE from the FR website, and the description of CE. It's clear where Vader sits when you look at the descriptions given.

Vader is a CE Orc Antipaladin 15 under the command of a NE 20th level Wizard and in service to the LE Empire the Wizard created. He serves the Wizard through fear (knowing full well if it comes to initiative, the Wizard wins), butchering underlings for even trivial mistakes, and generally just doing what he wants, acting compleltely outside the law, while secretly plotting to take the Wizard down.

Again we will have to agree to disagree. You see CE where I see LE.

 

[Flamestrike]

Remember - Chaotic creatures are not 'random'.

They just dont bother with any personal codes of conduct, are unconventional, unpredictable and dishonorable.

We agree Anakin was CG as a Jedi.

How (on the Law/ Chaos spectrum) did Anakin Skywalker become more Lawful on transition to Sith?

Literally nothing about him changed other than he went from Good to Evil. He didn't suddenly develop a code that I can see, start keeping his word or anything of the sort.

He started working for a LE Empire instead of the NG Republic, and his moral compass inverted. Thats it.

 

[Mind of tempest]

maybe Vader is NE given how we see a mix of both ce and le in him?

 

[Maxperson]

Again we will have to agree to disagree. You see CE where I see LE.

Who are you responding to there?

 

[Maxperson]

maybe Vader is NE given how we see a mix of both ce and le in him?

I see LE as well. He values loyalty and rewards it, and backs up his people. He follows the Sith code. He obeys his master. He doesn't kill Tarkin when Tarkin calls him out and insults the force, even though he could have, because Tarkin outranks him.

 

[Flamestrike]

maybe Vader is NE given how we see a mix of both ce and le in him?

There is no L in him. None at all.

No honor. None. No respect for family. No code. Never keeps his word. He follows the Emperor out of fear and would happily murder him and take his place if he could. Actively tries to betray him twice canonically (three times with EU and Starkiller) before finally giving it another go and tossing him down a shaft.

He literally even exists outside the law, able to murder even Moffs and Admirals with impunity.

Imagine he was an Orc, and insted of using the Force, used an Axe to murder people who displeased him, questioned his religion, came out of hyperspace earlier than he wanted, asked for a promotion for their role in creating the Death Star or were unable to catch evading space freighters in asteroid fields... in every example sparing enough time to crack a joke as he did so (I find your lack of faith disturbing, dont choke on your aspirations, apology accepted Captain Needa etc etc).

He literally murders people for the slightest insult, while trolling them as he does so.

Family? He tortures his daughter (then threatens to bring her before the Emperor and convert her to the Dark side), attempts to first freeze, then maim, then turn to the dark side (twice) and then kill his son (while trolling him), chokes his pregnant wife to death, bails on his mother leaving her as a literal slave for a decade, and never bothers checking in on his mothers husband (lucky for everyone involved).

Keeps his word? Nope. Has a code of honor? Nope. Is in any way trustworthy? Nope (literally kills both masters, and attempts as much on both apprentices). Betrays not only them but also the Jedi Order, Sith Order, Empire and Republic, which he also destroys.

Dont confuse the fact he works for a LE regime, as him being LE.

It's no different to (say) a NE assassin and spy working for the advancement of a LG regime getting his 'hands dirty' for the cause.

 

[Helldritch]

Who are you responding to there?

I was responding to Flamestrike.
I like that chap but I really see LE in Darth Vador... I really do.... and he does not. He sees CE. And yet, every single examples he gives me screams LE... go figure....

 

[Helldritch]

There is no L in him. None at all.

No honor. None. No respect for family. No code. Never keeps his word. He follows the Emperor out of fear and would happily murder him and take his place if he could. Actively tries to betray him twice canonically (three times with EU and Starkiller) before finally giving it another go and tossing him down a shaft.

He literally even exists outside the law, able to murder even Moffs and Admirals with impunity.

Imagine he was an Orc, and insted of using the Force, used an Axe to murder people who displeased him, questioned his religion, came out of hyperspace earlier than he wanted, asked for a promotion for their role in creating the Death Star or were unable to catch evading space freighters in asteroid fields... in every example sparing enough time to crack a joke as he did so (I find your lack of faith disturbing, dont choke on your aspirations, apology accepted Captain Needa etc etc).

He literally murders people for the slightest insult, while trolling them as he does so.

Family? He tortures his daughter (then threatens to bring her before the Emperor and convert her to the Dark side), attempts to first freeze, then maim, then turn to the dark side (twice) and then kill his son (while trolling him), chokes his pregnant wife to death, bails on his mother leaving her as a literal slave for a decade, and never bothers checking in on his mothers husband (lucky for everyone involved).

Keeps his word? Nope. Has a code of honor? Nope. Is in any way trustworthy? Nope (literally kills both masters, and attempts as much on both apprentices). Betrays not only them but also the Jedi Order, Sith Order, Empire and Republic, which he also destroys.

Dont confuse the fact he works for a LE regime, as him being LE.

It's no different to (say) a NE assassin and spy working for the advancement of a LG regime getting his 'hands dirty' for the cause.

Do not put orcs in this thread. Moderators will close it. Do not put racial at all. Please.

 

[Flamestrike]

I was responding to Flamestrike.
I like that chap but I really see LE in Darth Vador... I really do.... and he does not. He sees CE. And yet, every single examples he gives me screams LE... go figure....

How on earth is Vader similar to Lord Soth, Artemis Entreri, Steel Brightblade, or Tywin Lannister? They're the examples I gave.

Unlike those four, he doesnt keep his word, has no honor, follows no code, and actively harms his own family, friends, masters and apprentices attempting to convert them to the dark side, torture them, kill them, maim them or all of the above.

Take the fact he works for the Empire out of it. Pretend (for a second) he doesnt work for the Empire. Imagine the Emperor was alone and working in secret, just a crazy evil hermit, and Vader was his minion, who he serves out of fear.

Putting the Empire to one side, What makes Vader Lawful (as opposed to his days as a Jedi)?

 

[PsyzhranV2]

And that 8s the beauty of alignment my friend. The basics are there, the usefulness of the system is not denied. Only the interpretation is in question here. But basically, we all agree more or less on the same principles. A lawful character differs from a chaotic one and a good character will not do things than an evil one will.

That statement is practically self-evident, even without codified alignment. It's the attempt to try and codify it further that is leading to the current arguments in the thread. So what usefulness does alignment have?