D&D 5E Greyhawk: Pitching the Reboot

[Ruin Explorer]

It makes sense to me. The world is too sprawling to fit neatly into the trope sinkholes that define Ravenloft. The setting is VERY D&D like in its magic use. But it's too grim to fit into the Realms or Eberron. Thematically, it fits for me into a GoT/Witcher themed Greyhawk.

Attack on Titan Is Currently the Most Popular Show in the United States

According to a new data report, Attack on Titan is currently the most popular show in the United States.

www.cbr.com

Yes, my number one choice for escapism is the world where my mom gets eaten by a 50 foot tall toddler. I think we're using different meanings for escapism. I don't see escapism and "emotional relevance" as opposite sides of a spectrum.


I'm basing this on having a 14 year old son with a group of friends who are all into anime, and all of them devoured (npi) the new seasons of AoT when they started watching it 2 years ago. Most of what I watch nowadays is based on my son's recommendations, rather than my own. I've seen too much isekai for my own good.

Purely anecdotal, but that's all any of us can offer. None of us are subject matter experts on this.

I'm going to have to call naughty word on the CBR clickbait article which can't even bother to spell popular ("polar") I'm afraid mate. It's a talking about a single week in February, and it can't explain the metrics it's using, which are not the conventional "how many people watched it" ones, it appears.

Going to Parrot's website, we can see that "Demand" is basically total naughty word they've made up in order to convince people to give them money: Global Demand Measurement

EDIT - OH MY GOD IT'S SO MUCH WORSE THAN I THOUGHT.

Not only are they not measuring actual viewing or anything of the sort, whatever ridiculous metric it is, is allowing shows that aren't even on TV to totally dominate on "Demand". For example, scroll to the bottom of that page and select "United Kingdom". See Superman and Lois is absolutely killing it on "Demand" (their made-up metric). It's at +2463% - wow, I guess it must be a big show in the UK.

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ITS NOT EVEN ON TV IN THE UK!!! Arggggghhhh! No network has even bought it yet. But according to our buddies at Parrot, it's totally the top show in the UK, because of their "Demand" metric.

I think I lost like 10 IQ just trying to even understand this naughty word. I will never regret walking away from that industry.

I'm basing this on having a 14 year old son with a group of friends who are all into anime, and all of them devoured (npi) the new seasons of AoT when they started watching it 2 years ago. Most of what I watch nowadays is based on my son's recommendations, rather than my own. I've seen too much isekai for my own good.

I'm just like INCREDIBLY skeptical that your 14-year-old son is going to be into grimdark low-magic Greyhawk which all about politics and so on, as has been suggested in this thread. This whole "WOO LOW MAGIC" thing is pretty hilarious in the context of Attack on Titan, too. I don't see Geralt flashing across cities via grappling hooks in order to chop up strangely pliable giants with unfathomably sharp swords.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The Warhammer updates/reboots by Cubicle 7 are doing really well, and those are mostly grimdark, but they are doing well because they are not D&D, though I doubt it is all men who are middle-aged or older giving them all those sales.

No they aren't "doing really well" in any way that matters to this discussion.

Their sales are a joke next to any 5E D&D book. And that's with a well-established grimdark brand with a pre-existing edgelord audience. Also the WFRPG ones are not even grimdark really. Less so than what's proposed here. They're kind of fun. 40K is of course. Admittedly I bought the 40K ones... but I'm old...

 

[Helldritch]

The Warhammer updates/reboots by Cubicle 7 are doing really well, and those are mostly grimdark, but they are doing well because they are not D&D, though I doubt it is all men who are middle-aged or older giving them all those sales.

Warhammer is currently #2 at our hobby store... And it is not played by old gragnard like me but older teens that are heavy onto anime AoT is one of those but there is one with a girl posted by demon that fights demons or whatever and I don't remember the title but it sure looks quite grim from what they are telling me. They are very far from Sakura card captor...

Edit:" And even stranger is the fact that an other teen "pack" have bought every single Vampire the Masquerade 1st and 2nd edition second hand books they could get their hands on.... They asked me If I could sell mine. I declined but they were eying my werewolf books. So yep, grim and dark fantasy might be getting a small gain in popularity.

 

[TwoSix]

I think I lost like 10 IQ just trying to even understand this naughty word. I will never regret walking away from that industry.

<shrug> If all metrics are bulls**t, we're down to trusting our own gut feelings. I trust mine more than yours, no offense.

I'm just like INCREDIBLY skeptical that your 14-year-old son is going to be into grimdark low-magic Greyhawk which all about politics and so on, as has been suggested in this thread. This whole "WOO LOW MAGIC" thing is pretty hilarious in the context of Attack on Titan, too. I don't see Geralt flashing across cities via grappling hooks in order to chop up strangely pliable giants with unfathomably sharp swords.

I'm not an advocate for the GoT themed politics or "Fantasy WWI" either. (Nothing says sexy like trench warfare and mustard gas.) I just think the argument that rebooting Greyhawk as a pastiche of '10s and '20s darker fantasy isn't commercially viable is a weak one.

 

[Mercurius]

I think those are good ideas and you pitch it well, @Snarf Zagyg , but at the risk of being a party-pooper, I just don't see why WotC would want to resuscitate Greyhawk - except for, perhaps, a one-off anniversary box set. I don't think it has contemporary appeal, and if they want to explore some of the themes you mention--namely, a low-fantasy setting more akin to Howard than Tolkien--I think there are better ways to do that, or at least with potentially wider appeal. I think a commemorative love letter to classic Greyhawk in a one-off deluxe product is a better bet than a re-envisioning of a very 1970s world in 2020s trappings.

 

[grimslade]

I don't buy the low magic Greyhawk argument. The Rain of Colorless Fire and the waste where the Suel Imperium was, show pretty adept magic-using human civilizations of the Suel and Bakluni. The Flan predate them with their own Empire of the Spider Throne with a minor spellcaster who ruled named Vecna. Mordie and Tasha don't seem to be doing too badly in the magic department. There is plenty of magic, but it is in the hands of the few. There are scores of groups that police the use of magic in the Flaenness, like the Silent ones, the Wizards Guild of Greyhawk, and the Dark Watch.
I think any reboot of Greyhawk should not try to simulate a pre-WW1 or WW2. Greyhawk is more like the world now. Lots of former empires striving to recapture their past glory and influence. There is no risk of global war, but there are constant internecine conflicts springing up. The Circle of Eight is disbanded. Iuz has rivals. Turrosh Mak has made a nation of the goblin hordes right next to Celene and the Uleks. The Scarlet Brotherhood is divided within by a sect of Tharizdun worshippers celebrating the entropy of the world but still manages to try and destabilize the rest of the Oerth. There is no 'superpower' to dominate except maybe Iuz.
The reboot should play up this chaotic time. There are uncertainty and opportunity. The relics of the past can bring great power and great terrors. Magic has wrought great destruction in Oerth's history. It is powerful and not to be trusted. If you have magical power, you possess a great treasure. Hoard it like a dragon. The Free Cities and their guilds and trading costers wield power commensurate to nobles. Ancient foes lurk and grow in the dark and wild lands left empty by the decaying Powers. Will you fight to defend the defenseless? Will you dominate the hills and rule a new kingdom? Will you delve into eldritch tombs to loot the secrets of a bygone era? Journey to the Jewel of the Flaenness, Greyhawk!

 

[jgsugden]

When I run Oerth, Faerun, Krynn, or Eberron, I always start the campaign on the same date in the history of the setting - and for all 4 it is the starting point of the first campaign set for the setting. These worlds were created to run on that foundation, and that is the point in time when the most hooks are present.

The OP here seems to talk about the features of Greyhawk like they are bugs, when they create a lot of tension and uncertainty. A world on the brink of war on a variety of fronts with no heroes there to save the day except for the heroes of the campaign? Awesome sauce. That is a great way to start a campaign - everything falling apart faster and faster until the PCs get powerful enough to pull some of it back together.

 

[The Glen]

One way to look at Greyhawk is grim fatalism. The average peasant can't rely on his lord to provide them with protection from giants, bandits or orcs. They get raided, and the knights are busy playing war. Their sons get taken into the army, and the family struggles to survive. That's where players come in. They fight the bad guys out of a sense of justice or hoping they will find treasure in the caves and camps of the raiders. Grim Dark means the world is doomed, Mork Borg is grimdark. Greyhawk you want to keep the air of looming war in the background, but rarely pull the trigger on it. If a nation is attacked by another nation, then suddenly friendly borders get closed. Would-be allies declare neutrality. You can't count on anyone else, for a lot of people adventurers are their only option for any relief. It colors the world in dark grey rather than black and white, but it also gives the players the chance to be the beacon their world is longing for.

 

[fearsomepirate]

My question would be, what does Greyhawk add?
Most of the new setting based books so far for 5E aren't just a bunch of people and places, but instead add something new that can be used in any home brew campaign.
Examples:

Ravnica = Guilds
Theros = Gods/Piety
Eberron = New races/Artificer/etc
Wildemount = Dunamancy

Ravenloft = Demiplanes

A Greyhawk setting should add rules for ruling domains and waging war. And it shouldn't be boring book-keeping crap, nobody wants to keep track of annual crop yield.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

A Greyhawk setting should add rules for ruling domains and waging war. And it shouldn't be boring book-keeping crap, nobody wants to keep track of annual crop yield.

And if any such waging war rules are complex mini-game nonsense like Battlesystem or Birthright’s failed attempt, it’ll be a waste. It would need to be as simple as Warmachine from BECMI, or even simpler to resolve. I’d prefer it as simple the more complex skill challenges, with no unit maneuvering.