D&D 5E Greyhawk: Pitching the Reboot

[Hussar]

Just a correction to your historical correction.

The G series of modules came out in 1978. And, I wonder how the sales were of the Folio edition? I know that I've never actually seen one in print. The boxed set was everywhere, but, that was some time later. The Greyhawk Folio though? Not sure it was that widespread. Certainly nowhere near as popular as some of the modules.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Just a correction to your historical correction.
.

That usually implies, you know, a correction.

 

[Sithlord]

The whole point of this thread is to see what niche Greyhawk fits in. We are discussing how GH would work as an alternative to typical D&D. Saying "Oh people won't like this because it's not high-magic enough" defeats the purpose. People buy new setting books for alternative ways of playing D&D.

And yes, there is obviously a market for people who want to play in low-magic settings, even if the PCs themselves do not follow the rules of the setting around them. Some people do want to play Daenarys discovering dragons in a bleak desert, or Geralt helping a hapless town from the griffin taking their livestock.

Greyhawk or Oerth is not low magic. It is the most magical of earth, urth, yrth, and Aerth as described by Gygax.

 

[Rob Kuntz]

Greyhawk or Oerth is not low magic. It is the most magical of earth, urth, yrth, and Aerth as described by Gygax.

True. I've never understood why it's even considered low magic by some. What with gods vying here and there and championing their positions for power, the many wars and power plays, and not to mention that it was not that developed (thus more of the same was on the horizon), one can almost equate the power employed to events from the ancient Grecian Myth cycles. Sacking of the TOEE led to Robilar's castle (in the campaign, but as recorded in TOEE as published) being sacked and to a major Demoness being released. My Demonic Knights of Doom previewed in Dragon Magazine ended up being re-enlivened in Ivid the Undying. The plot was always thickening in Greyhawk. Just take a look at Maure Castle and try to say that my creation in any way equals low magic. Oerth is not low magic; it's engaged at every level as any rollicking, up-tempo Fantasy setting should be.

 

[Sithlord]

True. I've never understood why it's even considered low magic by some. What with gods vying here and there and championing their positions for power, the many wars and power plays, and not to mention that it was not that developed (thus more of the same was on the horizon), one can almost equate the power employed to events from the ancient Grecian Myth cycles. Sacking of the TOEE led to Robilar's castle (in the campaign, but as recorded in TOEE as published) being sacked and to a major Demoness being released. My Demonic Knights of Doom previewed in Dragon Magazine ended up being re-enlivened in Ivid the Undying. The plot was always thickening in Greyhawk. Just take a look at Maure Castle and try to say that my creation in any way equals low magic. Oerth is not low magic; it's engaged at every level as any rollicking, up-tempo Fantasy setting should be.

One of the thing I really liked about oerth was that it was a very neutrally aligned plane and because of that the outer planes had a strong interest in tilting it in their favor. Iuz became a big deal (and was cool), but the daemons and a strong presence and a good chance of tilting Oerth in their favor.

 

[Rob Kuntz]

One of the thing I really liked about oerth was that it was a very neutrally aligned plane and because of that the outer planes had a strong interest in tilting it in their favor. Iuz became a big deal (and was cool), but the daemons and a strong presence and a good chance of tilting Oerth in their favor.

Again very true! Methinks (as Gary would have said) that people should re-read Gary's run of "Up on a Soapbox" articles from Dragon Magazine wherein he recounts Mordenkainen's and crew adventures into my own Castle El Raja Key and environs; then his foray against the Iron Golem (1973) recounted in his "Swords & Sorcery in Wargaming" (1975) wherein he retells that adventure (which would move on to be WG5 > Maure Castle); during that adventure in 1973 he discovered a link to my Lost City of the Elders I had started creating (that place was built and eventually lost by a God, no less). That's in 1973-1974; and it only carried forward from that point with demonic invasions (two adventures into my 9 page map-area of Demon World, 1974) and what not. Low magic? <snicker>.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

True. I've never understood why it's even considered low magic by some.

I think that the reason that it's pitched for low magic is two-fold.

The first is as a reaction to the character builds in 5e. Most "classic Greyhawk" (in other words, the 576 CY timeline of the DMG/Folio/WoG/Modules) is considered "low magic" in the sense that the characters are low magic in comparison to 5e characters. To be clear, that doesn't mean that Mordenkainen and Bigby and the other magic users didn't exist; simply that magic items and artifacts provided the impetus for magic for many characters, and martials (such as Robilar) didn't have innate "spell-like" abilities. Many times the term "low magic" is really used as a short-hand for "more like OD&D / 1e."

The second is different, and it's the idea that Greyhawk would be more likely to succeed today if it had something to differentiate it from other fantasy settings (such as FR). Now, if you really know Greyhawk, you know that it's different- but for the causal new player, they both seem similar to "kitchen sink campaigns." Whether the idea is "low magic," or "more gonzo (Barrier Peaks)" or something else, the general idea is ... what aspects of GH can be played up to make it attractive to a new audience?

 

[hopeless]

Emphasize the PCs are the heroes of this game?
There are no high level characters who can step in when things get bad.
But would that be enough to encourage interest?

 

[Sithlord]

God I would kill to see the ides from Gord the Rogue from the first 2 novels used in the setting and some ideas from later novels. Really loved the way the planes worked and the animal lords.

 

[Rob Kuntz]

I think that the reason that it's pitched for low magic is two-fold.

The first is as a reaction to the character builds in 5e. Most "classic Greyhawk" (in other words, the 576 CY timeline of the DMG/Folio/WoG/Modules) is considered "low magic" in the sense that the characters are low magic in comparison to 5e characters. To be clear, that doesn't mean that Mordenkainen and Bigby and the other magic users didn't exist; simply that magic items and artifacts provided the impetus for magic for many characters, and martials (such as Robilar) didn't have innate "spell-like" abilities. Many times the term "low magic" is really used as a short-hand for "more like OD&D / 1e."

The second is different, and it's the idea that Greyhawk would be more likely to succeed today if it had something to differentiate it from other fantasy settings (such as FR). Now, if you really know Greyhawk, you know that it's different- but for the causal new player, they both seem similar to "kitchen sink campaigns." Whether the idea is "low magic," or "more gonzo (Barrier Peaks)" or something else, the general idea is ... what aspects of GH can be played up to make it attractive to a new audience?

How does one differentiate low level play? Not much difference over any edition for first learners. When one starts that curve upward after getting their feet wet, yes, Greyhawk 1E would be no different (technically) from any other setting updated to 5E. What's the magic formula? I don't believe one exists if you were to whole-cloth re-render WoG as-is and just update it to 5E If there could be one it'd be investment by DM and player in it. Greyhawk would have to be remade and then looped back to what it was. Perhaps Gary had more than a passing contempt in mind when he blew his version of Oerth up in the last Gord novel? It might have been awkwardly prophetic considering the current impasse, as I see it. So? Blow it up and use its past as a relic that the survivors are seeking. You want difference? You got it! Go complete Dying Earth. That's what I'd do. Anything else is just a massage.