Falcon and winter solider

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Decapitation America

Mod Edit: Comment removed. Whatever the intent, this came across very badly, and remoting it was better than having an argument over it. ~Umbran

 

[billd91]

I just rewatched that episode and that Flag Smasher was NOT a dangerous enemy.
He was terrified and fleeing for his life.

While fleeing, he threw a stone (?) garbage bin at Walker. Not as an attempt to hurt him but to put something between him and Walkers wrath.

He was also the only Flag Smasher that we’ve seen trying to keep Karli from engaging in her most extreme impulses. Narratively, of course it had to be him that Walker would kill.

 

[billd91]

I’m enjoying the show and its unabashed wallowing in gray area morality. Sam and Bucky are trying pretty hard to wear their white hats, but everyone else is a mix of positive and negative and they‘re all clashing.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I’m enjoying the show and its unabashed wallowing in gray area morality. Sam and Bucky are trying pretty hard to wear their white hats, but everyone else is a mix of positive and negative and they‘re all clashing.

I’d say the show only counts as “grey” in terms of individuals. In terms of actions, policies, etc, it is very black and white.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I’d say the show only counts as “grey” in terms of individuals. In terms of actions, policies, etc, it is very black and white.

Definitely. Pretty much all of the characters are gray, from Karli, to Lamar, to Bucky, and even Zemo, but there is also a lot of black and white. Karli's bombing of innocents is bad, Walker's taking of the serum and the murder of Karli's friend is bad, Zemo's destruction of the serum is good, Sam's attempt to reason is good, and Bucky's anger at Sam for giving up the shield is also pretty justified.

I wonder if they will actually destroy the Shield at the end of this series (if they can even do that). It has been mentioned quite a bit already, to the extent where it feels like if it gets mentioned so much it must happen. Zemo's statement about symbols and them being used to cover up flaws is a good point, and may be why Sam and/or Bucky eventually decide to destroy the Shield in an effort to prevent it from ever being misused by someone like Walker in the future. Sam could use the Shield and uphold its meaning, but it may be even more meaningful for both the character and the show if he decides that the destruction of the symbol is the best option. It kind of reminds me of Peter turning down being an Avenger (and the Iron Spider Suit) at the end of Spider-Man: Homecoming.

 

[trappedslider]

I wonder if they will actually destroy the Shield at the end of this series (if they can even do that).

I'm pretty sure they can destroy it, it may just a huge effort and possibly some help from Wakanda.

 

[Sithlord]

This series is so disappointing on so many levels.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Definitely. Pretty much all of the characters are gray, from Karli, to Lamar, to Bucky, and even Zemo, but there is also a lot of black and white. Karli's bombing of innocents is bad, Walker's taking of the serum and the murder of Karli's friend is bad, Zemo's destruction of the serum is good, Sam's attempt to reason is good, and Bucky's anger at Sam for giving up the shield is also pretty justified.

Sam’s reasons for giving up the shield are also totally understandable.

I’d argue that Zemo’s destruction of the serum is ambiguous, but 100% in keeping with his principles.

The problem is, the MCU doesn’t really earn the premise of “Zemo having a point”. Like, he is understandable, but he definitely isn’t right, which is in contrast to Killmonger, who was right about everything but the method.

I wonder if they will actually destroy the Shield at the end of this series (if they can even do that). It has been mentioned quite a bit already, to the extent where it feels like if it gets mentioned so much it must happen. Zemo's statement about symbols and them being used to cover up flaws is a good point, and may be why Sam and/or Bucky eventually decide to destroy the Shield in an effort to prevent it from ever being misused by someone like Walker in the future. Sam could use the Shield and uphold its meaning, but it may be even more meaningful for both the character and the show if he decides that the destruction of the symbol is the best option. It kind of reminds me of Peter turning down being an Avenger (and the Iron Spider Suit) at the end of Spider-Man: Homecoming.

Maybe, though I think it would be more meaningful for the audience to see Sam as Captain America.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Sam’s reasons for giving up the shield are also totally understandable.

I agree. Edit: I missed the "also", and thought you disagreed with me. My mistake.

I’d argue that Zemo’s destruction of the serum is ambiguous, but 100% in keeping with his principles.

The problem is, the MCU doesn’t really earn the premise of “Zemo having a point”. Like, he is understandable, but he definitely isn’t right, which is in contrast to Killmonger, who was right about everything but the method.

The super-soldier serum is a powerful weapon, and powerful weapons are dangerous. The world would be better off without nuclear weapons, as in the wrong hands, disaster strikes. Zemo is definitely a bad guy, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I disagree. I think they earned it. Zemo won in Civil War. The only thing he lost was his opportunity to take his life when T'challa stopped him from shooting himself. His methods were/are completely wrong, but his points that power should not be handed to people who don't deserve it (and very, very few truly deserve power), and that good/well-meaning symbols can be used in bad ways are correct. With great power comes great responsibility and symbols/ideals are tools and not excuses. It doesn't matter if Walker or Karli genuinely want to improve the world (I'm doubtful that Walker took up the role of Captain America for any non-selfish reason), but their means are not justified by their end goals. It doesn't matter if the Flag Smashers' grievances are legitimate, or if Walker truly wanted to bring terrorists to justice - the ends do not justify the means and the symbols used by them cannot/shouldn't be used as an excuse. It doesn't matter if I'm correct in saying "Nerds shouldn't be bullied in schools" or something similar, if I go about it by harming others, I can't fall back on my own experiences being bullied or our community to support me. (This goes the other way, too. If someone uses a symbol of good to inflict harm, that doesn't make the symbol and their cause bad, it makes the person and their action bad.)

Maybe I'm reading into it too much, but I am pretty sure the writers of this show are trying to do some serious social commentary, on both ends of the spectrum. Walker is wrong, bad, and a supremacist, but murder/violence is never the answer.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I disagree. I think they earned it. Zemo won in Civil War. The only thing he lost was his opportunity to take his life when T'challa stopped him from shooting himself. His methods were/are completely wrong, but his points that power should not be handed to people who don't deserve it (and very, very few truly deserve power), and that symbols can be used in bad ways are correct. With great power comes great responsibility and symbols/ideals are tools and not excuses. It doesn't matter if Walker or Karli genuinely want to improve the world (I'm doubtful that Walker took up the role of Captain America for any non-selfish reason), but their means are not justified by their end goals. It doesn't matter if the Flag Smashers' grievances are legitimate, or if Walker truly wanted to bring terrorists to justice - the ends do not justify the means and the symbols used by them cannot/shouldn't be used as an excuse. It doesn't matter if I'm correct in saying "Nerds shouldn't be bullied in schools" or something similar, if I go about it by harming others, I can't fall back on my own experiences being bullied or our community to support me. (This goes the other way, too. If someone uses a symbol of good to inflict harm, that doesn't make the symbol and their cause bad, it makes the person and their action bad.)

Maybe I'm reading into it too much, but I am pretty sure the writers of this show are trying to do some serious social commentary, on both ends of the spectrum. Walker is wrong, bad, and a supremacist, but murder/violence is never the answer.

I don’t think any of that challenges what I said.