D&D 5E Sane Magic Item Prices

[Chaosmancer]

"The entire point of adventuring might not be to get rich, but I've never really seen much other point to it." - every character in the history of forever.

The problem is that the treasure amounts given out by modern adventures have become too low.

See, I don't think that is a problem. Frankly, I have run plenty of very good campaigns where the players really didn't make any money. Barely any treasure at all, and I would very rarely hand out gold. It just... wasn't important. They weren't adventuring for Gold, they were going and saving the world.

And, I also tended to give them custom magical items that allowed for some cool things, which gave them boosts at the right times to keep their characters evolving and feeling interesting.

True. Some families are descended from successful adventurers.

I'm not sure whether to laugh or roll my eyes. -_-

 

[Chaosmancer]

You might want to slow your roll there. Whether or not Dungeon of the Mad Mage is magic treasure lite or not, AL isn't exactly administered the same as a typical home campaign, even if you are running a hardcover adventure in AL-style. There are considerations embedded in the rules of AL to facilitate players taking their PCs from event to event, playing adventures in a variety of mixed orders as events are available, and otherwise streamlining administration of characters so very little DM overhead is required and there aren't too many worries about inconsistency - something a regular home campaign running the module would handle very differently (such as using downtime to buy magic items).

Baconbits is basically complaining about the adventure as run by his home DM by comparing it to how a different DM (the AL guidelines) chose to do so. He might as well be complaining about the adventure as run by "Just as it is Joe" vs "Arlene the Adapter" vs "TPK Tyler" vs "Easygoing Eddie".

No, that isn't what I interpret what he was complaining about.

He was complaining that the Adventure they sold for DMs to run at their home game seemed to have been designed to slot into a larger ruleset and assumptions of Adventure League.

Sort of like buying an IPhone and realizing that you also need to by an apple brand charger and an apple brand ear buds, because the Iphone was designed only to work with those products. Only, instead of this being a known fact about Apple, there was no indication for Dungeon of the Mad Mage to have been designed with all of the potential rewards (in an adventure where the hook is to get impressive loot to recover your loss of the hoard from the previous adventure) to have been in the larger AL system, not in the game itself.

 

[Lanefan]

In the real world,sure. Everybody knows the rarity system in 5e is bonkers, with items giving flight once cost ten times an item granting continuous flight and so on. What people disagree on is whether that's a problem or not.
The only (sane, thus the title of this thread) way to price magic items is on utility. Everything else is just random and arbitrary. And that's why it's repeatedly said in this thread and many others, that's it's not easy. And that WotC took the very easy way out.

Utility is one thing. Rarity and-or ease of acquirement is another. Both are valid factors to consider in pricing.

I mean, sure, if all items are equally common then utility becomes the only differentiator. But when commonality also varies it has to be considered. Example: +1 longswords are in most games fairly common; +1 bardiches, much less so. Therefore, the +1 bardiche in theory should be a bit more costly due to rarity - say, 2250 g.p. instead of 2000.

That, however, brings in a third factor: overall demand for an item. Here my bardiche example goes the other way: many more people use longsword than use bardiche, so maybe the +1 bardiche will end up costing (or selling for!) less than the sword. This factor, however, is more likely to vary by campaign/table, so is best left to the DM to sort out.

 

[Lanefan]

How am I gaming the system? What part of having a large pool of wealth is gaming the system? If a player started the game with a million gold, what would that ruin?

Balance. Pure and simple.

That million-g.p. character would - if it had any more brains than a shoe - spend some of that money on the best adventuring equipment available: warhorses; war dogs; field plate (if a warrior); every spell in the book (if an arcane caster); masterwork everything; hordes of retainers and henches; and - most important - any and all useful magic items it could find. All before ever theading out into the field.

And it would still have enough left over to buy a castle and the village next to it.

Meanwhile here comes Joe with his scale mail and shortsword because he can't afford splint and a longbow.

Now I don't usually give a flying fig about in-party balance but this is over the top even for me.

 

[Lanefan]

See, I don't think that is a problem. Frankly, I have run plenty of very good campaigns where the players really didn't make any money. Barely any treasure at all, and I would very rarely hand out gold. It just... wasn't important. They weren't adventuring for Gold, they were going and saving the world.

Saving the world's all well and good but at the end of the day most characters IME want a payoff.

And, I also tended to give them custom magical items that allowed for some cool things, which gave them boosts at the right times to keep their characters evolving and feeling interesting.

That's cool - until they turn around and sell 'em.

 

[tetrasodium]

No, that isn't what I interpret what he was complaining about.

He was complaining that the Adventure they sold for DMs to run at their home game seemed to have been designed to slot into a larger ruleset and assumptions of Adventure League.

Sort of like buying an IPhone and realizing that you also need to by an apple brand charger and an apple brand ear buds, because the Iphone was designed only to work with those products. Only, instead of this being a known fact about Apple, there was no indication for Dungeon of the Mad Mage to have been designed with all of the potential rewards (in an adventure where the hook is to get impressive loot to recover your loss of the hoard from the previous adventure) to have been in the larger AL system, not in the game itself.

rhime of the frostmaiden kinda feels that way. Basically none of the encounters has anything of value baked in save for a handful of boss type encounters Shy of selling the potion of invisibility found on kelvin's cairn (ch1) & necropolis (ch7) & potion of vitality in the elven tomb (ch1) there is basically no meaningful sources of income unless you want to take this downright "epic" haul

Spoiler: D9 Hold

from this totally level appropriate encounter around level 5 or so

Spoiler: no sweat guys

statblock

In order to actually take advantage of that opportunity you need to remember that A those potions are very rare & B they have a list price around 20,000gp The magic items to find on their own are pretty awful in availability as well & that only gets slightly better towards the end so players are almost forced into metagaming to be more certain of their location than the gm.

Edit:descent into avernis wasn't much better either.

 

[Maxperson]

Earning money by killing the dragon is okay, because that involves the rules. But, is the important part of that interaction getting the money, or beating the dragon?

Because, by saying that you can't earn "free" money during downtime, you seem to focus the lens on the goal of DnD being the Dragon's Hoard, not actually defeating the dragon.

More Strawman. I didn't say you can't earn free money. In fact, not only is free money is all over the downtime system.........................free money with a range of amounts you can get based on a roll. but I've explicitly said you should get a roll to see how much free money you get.

You are trying to game the system by avoiding that and just poofing in maximum money.

And yet, you still insist on missing the point, trying to make it sound like I'm obsessing over the fact you missed the downtime. I'm not talking about that. The literal only reason I brought up the Downtime at all, was because of exactly the accusation you made when you missed it.

Then let it go. It's over and done with and at this point is only detracting from the conversation.

Think this through Max, that inclination to accuse people of not playing DnD if they are making money by NOT adventuring was so strong you didn't even notice that I was talking about downtime. But now, instead of thinking about my point (WHY is it wrong to make money without adventuring) you want to keep making it about how I'm obsessing over you making a mistake. Stop obfuscating.

Or else I just missed it. Not everything has some ulterior motive.

 

[billd91]

No, that isn't what I interpret what he was complaining about.

He was complaining that the Adventure they sold for DMs to run at their home game seemed to have been designed to slot into a larger ruleset and assumptions of Adventure League.

Sort of like buying an IPhone and realizing that you also need to by an apple brand charger and an apple brand ear buds, because the Iphone was designed only to work with those products. Only, instead of this being a known fact about Apple, there was no indication for Dungeon of the Mad Mage to have been designed with all of the potential rewards (in an adventure where the hook is to get impressive loot to recover your loss of the hoard from the previous adventure) to have been in the larger AL system, not in the game itself.

Yes, I believe he thinks he’s complaining about that, but I think my interpretation is more in line with WotC’s design. AL seasons parallel the big adventure releases of the year, every year, with their own related adventures. There‘s no evidence the hardcover adventures are written assuming AL norms.

 

[CapnZapp]

I guess I'm just very, very good then. I found it easy to come up with my own prices during 1e and 2e. I found it very easy to do it in 3e where item prices were even more borked. And I've found it even easier in 5e there isn't a set price list to mislead the players. I'm honestly flabbergasted that you think it's hard.

Maybe time for some humility then? And maybe stop championing the self-righteous "I'm doing everybody a favor by keeping logical gold prices out of D&D", eh?

Of course making up prices is easy when you're good with basically random ones. When I say it's hard, I'm talking about prices that allow you to present the players with a menu of hard choices, where spending your wealth in an optimal manner is actually challenging, becoming an interesting anf fun mini-game in itself.

But no, WotC have decided nobody is getting to play the game this way anymore, since they correctly gambled on being able to get away with just abandoning this aspect of the game since it would have meant hiring more competent developers and actually caring.

The price list discussed here (Sane) was hugely valuable to me back in the day when 5E was new.

Sure it wasn't perfect, but at least it offered a point of light in an otherwise sea dark with people just blindly buying WotCs spiel hook line and sinker.

What it told me was that no, I wasn't insane, WotC's pricing scheme was. As in, yes, the books gave you advice in all earnestness that is just shite. No, you're not missing anything, is what Sane told me. They just straight-up shoveled you horse manure pretending it was gold.

 

[Maxperson]

Of course making up prices is easy when you're good with basically random ones. When I say it's hard, I'm talking about prices that allow you to present the players with a menu of hard choices, where spending your wealth in an optimal manner is actually challenging, becoming an interesting anf fun mini-game in itself.

There hasn't been an edition of D&D where this was true. During 3e, the most magic mart edition, there weren't any hard choices. It was the same few easy choices that were made over and over and over and over and over. The prices were borked and weren't at all priced to make people make hard decisions. Choosing optimal was easy, though.

And I don't make random prices. I price something where an item of that power level should be.

What it told me was that no, I wasn't insane, WotC's pricing scheme was. As in, yes, the books gave you advice in all earnestness that is just shite. No, you're not missing anything, is what Sane told me. They just straight-up shoveled you horse manure pretending it was gold.

This is where we agree. What WotC put out was very half-assed. I don't know that they pretended it was gold, though. They said that magic items aren't intended to be bought and sold, but if you really want to, here's a chart.