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D&D 5E Sane Magic Item Prices

I did show it....................in the price. You thinking that a normal range of AC was broken and warranted some super high price just showed you don't know what bounded accuracy is about.

Edit: I checked and you never said a word to me about my pricing other than to attack me. You did thank Lanefan at one point.
I would try and explain it to you if I thought it would have even the slightest chance of affecting your view.

Thanks for pricing the flight items
Post #282
 

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S'mon

Legend
I use the XGTE rules for crafting and selling, with some minor modification - eg I bring back the DMG level limits on crafting so you eg need to be 17th to make a Legendary. I don't like the XGTE rules for buying items - the 100gp up front is too high; the sale prices are too low especially for Uncommons. Instead I have a system where PCs can seek out the specific item they're interested in via an Investigation check, with a curated list of possible items.

Purchasing Magic Items

Making Magic Items - eg level 1 Scroll 25gp & 1 day, level 2 scroll 250gp & 3 days
Crafting Magic Weapons - eg +1 warhammer 250gp & 2 work weeks
Crafting Magic Armour - eg +1 shield 200gp & 2 work weeks, +1 plate 4000gp & 10 work weeks.


The big issue in 5e is that some items are in the wrong rarity bracket for reasonable sale & purchase prices, broom of flying and ring of invisibility are a couple examples. It's easy enough not to include broom of flying on the purchase list, and not to have a formula available for crafting, but these days I'm leaning towards keeping the rarity while changing the description - maybe a Legendary ring of invisibility lets you attack while invisible; maybe an Uncommon broom of flying requires attunement & concentration by a caster with Fly on their spell list.

I'm pretty happy that my players have plenty to spend gold on, without giving them 3e or 4e style free item purchase (not literally free in either edition, but the limits were very weak in practice). They don't have a list of all item prices for divvying up treasure equally, but that seems a bit meta anyway. They can usually get a rough idea of what an item might sell for, which seems to be enough.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
You can do whatever your DM allows you to. If you all want to play Business Empires and Loan Defaults, go for it. You can make the game whatever makes you happy. I'm just speaking to what the game has set up for downtime money earning. If you want to house rule that to be more, knock yourself out.

And there it is again, the cutesy nickname that states that "what you want to do isn't playing DnD"

You do realize that in the original edition of the game, by about 9th level you were supposed to be running kingdoms, right? It wasn't called "Kings and Castles" either, it was called Dungeons and Dragons. This is the attitude that frustrates me. It is like the community insists that if you want to build something, you can't play DnD.

I also notice you ignored by other example. Was that because you couldn't come up with a cutesy play on words for a rich guy going on an adventure? Couldn't figure out how to imply that that isn't really DnD because everyone knows that all DnD characters are dirt poor and scrounging for coppers before they clear their first dungeon and then become super wealthy... until the DM finds a way to make them poor again so they will go on the next adventure.
 

Stattick

Explorer
I did link to newer, better projects many posts ago. (nobody commented, so it probably got lost in the bickering). I'm not on a pc for most of the day, so won't be digging it up soon, but look for:
Blackball's Treasure (what I mostly use)
Magic Item Manual (from Wain Wright or something on DM's Guild)
Angry DM's crafting rules.
I, for one, appreciated those links. Thank you.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
I hadn't commented on the links @Matrix Sorcica , mostly because the main one you use (Blackball) had been up in a tab for over a month waiting for me to read it.

I finally did glance through it, and there are a few assumptions he made that I don't agree with, but it is a very solid list.

One of the big assumptions though that I think is worth mentioning is this, " The decision was made to value items designed for a given level at 100% of the wealth acquired by a single character at that level."

I get why they did that (so it wouldn't be available to lower levels, but could still be purchased at the level appropriate to the item) but I feel that might have been a mistake as well. Just a gut instinct, but the wealth per level I believe is cumulative. Meaning that if they purchase an item for 100% of their wealth at 5th level, that value needs to be subtracted from the wealth at higher levels, because they don't have that coin. It could be a quibble, and it is trivially easy to fix by altering the amount of treasure being handed out, but as I was skimming the document it jumped out at me.

One thing I do want to give massive kudos for though is that he does lay out exactly why he made the decision he did for each item on the list. Even if you disagree with the prices he gave, because he laid out his exact methodology it is far easier to adjust the price to fit your interpretation of where it should be. That is an amazing touch.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
And there it is again, the cutesy nickname that states that "what you want to do isn't playing DnD"

You do realize that in the original edition of the game, by about 9th level you were supposed to be running kingdoms, right? It wasn't called "Kings and Castles" either, it was called Dungeons and Dragons. This is the attitude that frustrates me. It is like the community insists that if you want to build something, you can't play DnD.
I like playing Magic & Mayhem(wizard PCs). I'm not saying it's not D&D. I'm pointing out the focus of your D&D.
I also notice you ignored by other example. Was that because you couldn't come up with a cutesy play on words for a rich guy going on an adventure? Couldn't figure out how to imply that that isn't really DnD because everyone knows that all DnD characters are dirt poor and scrounging for coppers before they clear their first dungeon and then become super wealthy... until the DM finds a way to make them poor again so they will go on the next adventure.
I ignored it, because it wasn't relevant. 1) The game isn't balanced for rich kid goes out to stub his toe on a monster. 2) it's no different than making lots of money, which I already countered. Coming up with yet another example of a brokenly wealthy PC doesn't need to be responded to.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest
Only if the price list is player-side info. I posit it should be - must be - DM-only, for a variety of reasons of which your point is one.

<snip>
You've walked right into my number one reason why magic item pricing is essential: to make treasury division equitable and fair.
I'll pull some prices out of my hat here, but they're not far wrong:

Axe +1 - 2000
Pearl of Power - 10000
Wand of Fireballs (fully charged) - 6000

Total value 18000, meaning each of our two intrepid heroes should expect to see 9000 worth come out of this. So the Barbie gets the axe, with Wiz gets the wand, and maybe the Pearl has to be sold with the proceeds divided such that each ends up with their 9000 in total value.

Otherwise, the Barbarian here is going to get hella ripped off.
Isn't this kind of contradictory? If the price list is DM-side only, then how would the players know how to divide the magic items by price?
(though I'm going to mention - I detest dividing magic by price if it ends up meaning a really juicy item has to be sold to make things equitable in the moment rather than eyeballing value and utility over the long term. It tends to be a deal-breaker for me participating in a game as a player)
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Isn't this kind of contradictory? If the price list is DM-side only, then how would the players know how to divide the magic items by price?
When they get an item evaluated I tell them its value. Once they've got all the values for their treasury (magic and non-magic) plus their coin, they just add it all up and divide to give each character's cash-value share. Knowing this, characters then claim magic items from the treasury (competing claims for the same item are usually settled by simple roll-off) and get cash to make up the rest - or pay in cash if they claim more than their share.
(though I'm going to mention - I detest dividing magic by price if it ends up meaning a really juicy item has to be sold to make things equitable in the moment rather than eyeballing value and utility over the long term. It tends to be a deal-breaker for me participating in a game as a player)
I'm the opposite: I very much dislike situations where treasure isn't divided up equitably by value, as I've seen too many situations where this wasn't done and things got unbalanced (to put it nicely) in a hurry; be it through greedy characters in the game, greedy players at the table, or both.

And if this means a really nice item has to be sold, so be it. As DM sometimes I prefer it that way; for example if a module gives some spectacularly powerful and expensive item that helps with the module but that I'd really rather not have in the campaign any longer than that, their having to sell it after the adventure because they can't afford to keep it is just fine by me. :)

That said, other options with a stupendous item are 1) to carry it forward as a party-owned possession (i.e. everyone has equal-value shares in the item, and everyone's here-and-now share is reduced) and then if someone wants to he-she can later buy out the other shares piecemeal as funds allow; or 2) for a character to borrow money - usually from another character - in order to afford the item.

The main problem with option 1) is if the party doesn't stick together, as is common in our games with characters coming and going from multiple parties, sorting out those shares later - and-or sorting out who gets to keep/use the item in the meantime - can be a right pain.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
I like playing Magic & Mayhem(wizard PCs). I'm not saying it's not D&D. I'm pointing out the focus of your D&D.

That is never how that comes across

I ignored it, because it wasn't relevant. 1) The game isn't balanced for rich kid goes out to stub his toe on a monster. 2) it's no different than making lots of money, which I already countered. Coming up with yet another example of a brokenly wealthy PC doesn't need to be responded to.

With bounded accuracy and a lack of support for buying and selling magic items, how is the game not balanced for playing a very archetypical role like the rich kid? Other than starting them at lower level than the party, you've got just about all of the pieces for playing a very classical example.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
That is never how that comes across



With bounded accuracy and a lack of support for buying and selling magic items, how is the game not balanced for playing a very archetypical role like the rich kid? Other than starting them at lower level than the party, you've got just about all of the pieces for playing a very classical example.
Because you can buy other unbalanced things, like armies, favors from kings, etc.
 

Hussar

Legend
For all the complaints made by 5e's defenders about how past editions had player running around as walking christmas trees high magic or whatever it' hard to overstate just how far over level & often deep into epic grade legendary gear 5e's forever recharging magic items are
But, by the same token, because magic items aren't fungible, it's easy to just not give those items.

I will never, ever give a flaming sword in my games. They are just too powerful. But, if I allow the PC's to buy magic items, I can guarantee that every single campaign I ran for my last group will feature every single fighter type carrying a flaming sword. Five campaigns in a row. Every fighter type had IDENTICAL magic item loadouts.

No thanks.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
The big issue in 5e is that some items are in the wrong rarity bracket for reasonable sale & purchase prices

Rarity and price should be linked, but not fully. Let us look at two weapons - a vicious sword (rare) and a +1 sword (uncommon).

The vicious weapon is rarer than the +1 sword. Why? There are tons of reasons why it could be. Perhaps the enchantment for vicious demand special and rare materials (must be quenched in the tears of the innocent!), while the magical procedure to make a +1 weapon is fairly well understood and straightforward ( required good steel and a bit of incantations and engraving). The details are left to the individual GM, this is just an example, but the bottom line is that it's easier to make a +1 sword than a vicious weapons. This is fine.

But should a vicious sword be more expensive than a +1 sword? From a utilitarian point of view, absolutely not! A +1 sword is just better than a vicious sword. (I'm going to assume that people understand why, if you don't let me know and I'll elaborate). So why should it be more expensive?

2 explanations:

1: there are collectors, not just users, of magical items (see my Yoon Suin example above).
2: The properties are not fully understood by people in-world. If you know the numerical values, it's clear. But if all you know is "this sword is just a bit better balanced and sharp, while this other sword from time to time will inflict huge wounds!" ... it's a bit less clear which is better than the other. So the PLAYER knows, but the PCs and NPCs do not.

So it is a problem, but perhaps not as unrealistic as it seems. After all, price and utility in the real world aren't 100% linked. Why is an old classic car worth more than the clearly better modern equivalent?
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
But, by the same token, because magic items aren't fungible, it's easy to just not give those items.

I will never, ever give a flaming sword in my games. They are just too powerful. But, if I allow the PC's to buy magic items, I can guarantee that every single campaign I ran for my last group will feature every single fighter type carrying a flaming sword. Five campaigns in a row. Every fighter type had IDENTICAL magic item loadouts.

No thanks.
I like randomly rolling my items, it can lead to fun :D
 



Stattick

Explorer
I've been in a long running 5e game. There's only one original character from that game still being played, and the character has made it to 17th or 18th level. At some point, the GM switched over to using Sane Magic Item Prices. It's kind of a pain, since the longer the game runs, the more out of date the Sane Magic Item Prices gets, as more magical items get added, while Sane doesn't get updated.

The bigger problem is that at some point, the GM started cutting back on the amount of treasure we get. I haven't talked to him about that, but I'm guessing that switched over to DMG recommendations or something.

Now, we can't stay afloat. There's not enough gold coming in, and the magic items are just too expensive. My present character (Changling Bard) started at 4th level and is now 8th level. She started play with Glamoured Studded Leather as her magic item. Since then, the only additional magic item I've acquired has been Goggles of Night, because another character took pity on me.

Maybe it's just a problem with my group, but I think it's actually the DMG advice (don't give out treasure) coupled with the Sane Magic Item Prices (overcharge for everything). But I'm very interested in what others have to say about this, and what solutions you've come up with at your own tables. I'm planning on GMing my own game soon, and would rather not have my players endlessly frustrated by not being able to afford magical items... or looking down at their character sheet and having to sheepishly say, "I can't afford <basic expense>... I'm broke."

I recently downloaded the Magic Item Management supplement that Matrix Sorcica posted. The prices there, for the most part, are quite a bit lower than the prices listed in Sane. Plus it's a more complete list, with items up through Tasha's being listed. The list isn't perfect, I've ran across a few missing items already, and have seen a few typos. But it's probably going to be what I'll be using when I start my own game.
 


Azzy

KMF DM
I did link to newer, better projects many posts ago. (nobody commented, so it probably got lost in the bickering). I'm not on a pc for most of the day, so won't be digging it up soon, but look for:
Blackball's Treasure (what I mostly use)
Magic Item Manual (from Wain Wright or something on DM's Guild)
Angry DM's crafting rules.
Thank you, I missed those.
 


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