D&D 5E Long Rests vs Short Rests

[Flamestrike]

Quick note: under AL rules the DM can't change the resting mechanics.

Source?

Ok, then lets assume the DM handwaves short rests, but only does it twice, being a total hardass on more than that.

 

[Flamestrike]

Also, i've flicked @tetrasodium a short premise of the adventure and encounters so we know I'm not cheating.

 

[tetrasodium]

Source?

Ok, then lets assume the DM handwaves short rests, but only does it twice, being a total hardass on more than that.

AL loosened up on using the optional/variant rules a bit & gave a little freedom with making thematically similar changes to the adventures at some point in the ALDMG. In the case of those rest mechanics changes it's probably on the line & could go either way but is something you could control even without saying x minutes instead of hour/hours so it probablyfits squarely in the realm of what little gm discretion AL allows

 

[Flamestrike]

AL loosened up on using the optional/variant rules a bit & gave a little freedom with making thematically similar changes to the adventures at some point in the ALDMG. In the case of those rest mechanics changes it's probably on the line & could go either way but is something you could control even without saying x minutes instead of hour/hours so it probablyfits squarely in the realm of what little gm discretion AL allows

Yeah but the DM is still free in AL to handwave a short rest, or alternatively go 'nope, it didn't work, here are some 'random' monsters instead, and stop trying to 5MWD this session'

 

[Xetheral]

Source?

Ok, then lets assume the DM handwaves short rests, but only does it twice, being a total hardass on more than that.

Adventurer's League Dungeon Master's Guide v9.1, page 2. The DM can change the content of the adventure, but the DM can't implement new rules.

 

[Flamestrike]

Adventurer's League Dungeon Master's Guide v9.1, page 2. The DM can change the content of the adventure, but the DM can't implement new rules.

Ok then, whatever, I can still handwave a rest (it worked) or have unexpected 'random' encounters or whatever I want interrupt short rests (it didnt work).

As a strong hint, dont try for more than two. Nasty things have been happening to those that do. And for the record, Im very permissive with those first two. Any after that, bad things tend to happen.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

If you have a metric that we can use to evaluate and compare the use of utility spells, that would be extremely cool. I am not aware of one however since they are generally too situational.

Once again. Give a different one! You are going around in circles complaining that the examples of damage disparities in combat are a bad metric while making efforts to avoid admitting merit in the problems you are arguing against being an issue as you justify why you shouldn't be expected to provide support for your position. Yes buffs debuffs & controls are are "hard to quantify", however the damage disparity gives an objective metric for what kind of weight they need to pull and they fall obscenely short of doing so. Later in this very post you even admit merit to some of the reasons I've already stated they fail at doing so as justification for not supporting your position. There might be areas we agree on & areas we disagree on, but you are attemting to claim all areas being called a problem are not problems with little more than trust me to support that

Well, since I can't think of one, and you can't think of one, how about Control effects? Damage?

One of the positions you have been dismissing as a point lacking merit is that the niche spells are too niche & too far into coincidental corner cases for various reasons people have detailed repeatedly in this thread. if a significant chunk of what you think is the wizard's true strength is something anyone can credibly claim"what if that situation just doesn't come up in the campaign?" You have confirmed that point is not only one with merit but so true that you can't even avoid proving it while arguing against the other problems.

Not a personal attack, but I do have a feeling that the sort of situations that fairly commonly come up in my assorted games may not be ones that come up in yours or Asisreo's.

Concentration is massively overused. Magic resistance is massively overused. Legendary resistance is massively overused Spells have excessive saves freely given even after the target fails the initial save or nothing happens save. Spells are dramatically undertuned lest they trod on some poor "mundane class" "chance to shine". The solution needs to correct that collective overcompensation trying to thwart the problems of old editions in a meaningful fashion

OK.
How?
How would you adjust the current mechanics of Legendary Resistance, ongoing saves etc, without returning to the bad old days when a wizard could simply remove the BBEG with a single failed save?

Four spells & a vague category of spells is not a class & those spells fall far short of bridging the contribution gap as you yourself all but admit by roping in generally vague & nonspecific niche spells that might maybe shine unless "that situation just doesn't come up in the campaign". We can't have this discussion while relying on a build hiding behind the quantum ogre to be all things at all times & draw upon any possible spell in any possible situation. We especially can't do that because you refuse to admit there is merit in any of the problems being raised while failing to provide support for your position that the problems being raised are entirely without merit.

I & others have asked you repeatedly to give us some other metric that you feel shows the wizard's real domain of greatness whatever you think that is. The only requirement is that you need to actually support it without foisting support of your position onto those you disagree with or an implied "trust me". Stop complaining you don't like the metric or don't feel it's fair to your position & give a new one that supports itself. The one you choose doesn't even need to prove all problems nonproblems as long as you simply admit x and/or y are still a problem while showing what you think is the true domain of strength for the wizard

If you want to stick with combat, how about comparing control options? Or damage?

Is this a joke? Both wizard and fighter include the words "Choose two skills from:"

Nope. No joke. You are stating precisely my point: Even when you take away all of the various spell options for being a primary caster with the best rituals of all the classes, the base wizard still has it as good as the base fighter does at their best.

Stop complaining that the problems being raised are because people aren't looking at the wizard's strengths & post a build showing what you think it's strengths are. Keep in mind that the wizard only has so many spells in their spellbook & can't simply pick whatever spells from their class spell list to swap between combat social exploration etc days like you seem to be suggesting now. Which assortment would you choose to support your position given the limits of how many spells a wizard gains & wotc's lack of effort in providing guidance telling GMs they "will want to be generous" with scrolls/spellbooks/etc like they did with magic weapons . Why do you make those choices & how do they support your position that all of the problems resulting in an undertuned wizard class as a whole?

OK. What level is this party that your wizard is so underperforming in, what are the other characters, and what sort of length adventuring day is the usual for your group? What is your group's/DM's preferred style of play?

 

[tetrasodium]

Well, since I can't think of one, and you can't think of one, how about Control effects? Damage?


Not a personal attack, but I do have a feeling that the sort of situations that fairly commonly come up in my assorted games may not be ones that come up in yours or Asisreo's.


OK.
How?
How would you adjust the current mechanics of Legendary Resistance, ongoing saves etc, without returning to the bad old days when a wizard could simply remove the BBEG with a single failed save?


If you want to stick with combat, how about comparing control options? Or damage?

Nope. No joke. You are stating precisely my point: Even when you take away all of the various spell options for being a primary caster with the best rituals of all the classes, the base wizard still has it as good as the base fighter does at their best.

If your so certain make a wizard meeting @Flamestrike's 7th level start here. here's what the player knows after finishing their last adventure. Each wizard is in a different group because a class needs to stand on its own rather than depend on duplication of that class to meet the bar of usefulness set by other classes that don't need to double up. Pull it out of the realm of quantum spellbook & quantum prepped list

as to that bold part, if you outright state that you think part of a wizard's strength is "four proficiencies" & come back from being corrected with the actual number with that without providing any support for the position you are taking other than yet another long list of questions not providing any details supporting you it calls into question if you are attempting to engage in good faith discussion or not

 

[Xetheral]

Ok then, whatever, I can still handwave a rest (it worked) or have unexpected 'random' encounters or whatever I want interrupt short rests (it didnt work).

As a strong hint, dont try for more than two. Nasty things have been happening to those that do. And for the record, Im very permissive with those first two. Any after that, bad things tend to happen.

An AL DM is allowed to introduce new encounters if (and only if) they "maintain the spirit of the adventure". If, after reading the published adventure being run, the DM can honestly say that they think it's within the spirit of the published adventure to add a random encounter every 59 minutes when party's activity level is low enough to qualify as a short rest, that would be within the AL rules.

However, since the PCs have to wait 16 hours after finishing a long rest to start the next short (Edit: long) rest, that means you're hounding them with random encounters up to 16 hours a day, every day. I am not familiar with any of the published adventures where I would consider adding that many random encounters to be "maintaining the spirit of the adventure".

Also, keep in mind that the first couple short rests a party (or an individual character) gets in an adventuring day may happen to be before the first combat encounter, especially if the day starts in a safe area like a village or city. By interrupting every subsequent short rest, on such days you're effectively denying the party any short rest resource recovery.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

as to that bold part, if you outright state that you think part of a wizard's strength is "four proficiencies"

I haven't stated the "array of ability scores, four proficiencies, and a background feature" as a strength of the wizard. Just that it is what both characters get as a baseline.
(I'm ignoring the tool, instrument, or language proficiencies, but it could be argued these don't often come into use much).

& come back from being corrected with the actual number with that without providing any support for the position you are taking other than yet another long list of questions not providing any details supporting you it calls into question if you are attempting to engage in good faith discussion or not

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here. Can you explain?

You're after level 7 spell loadout? I think this is the one one of the wizards in the group used at that level:
Cantrips Mold Earth, Shape Water, Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp,
Level 1 Tasha's Caustic Brew, Shield, Mage armour, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Identify, Find Familiar, Magic Missile
Level 2 Suggestion, Levitate, Invisibility, Hold Person
Level 3 Fireball, Haste, Summon Undead, Water Breathing
Level 4 Dimension Door, Wall of Fire.