D&D 5E Long Rests vs Short Rests

[tetrasodium]

I haven't stated the "array of ability scores, four proficiencies, and a background feature" as a strength of the wizard. Just that it is what both characters get as a baseline.
(I'm ignoring the tool, instrument, or language proficiencies, but it could be argued these don't often come into use much).


I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here. Can you explain?

You've been engaging in a gish gallop by providing endless questions & excuses for why you can't provide support for your position that wizards are strong in some vague nonspecific chunk of a noncombat pillar. This is your first attempt to support your position.

You're after level 7 spell loadout? I think this is the one one of the wizards in the group used at that level:
Cantrips Mold Earth, Shape Water, Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp,
Level 1 Tasha's Caustic Brew, Shield, Mage armour, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Identify, Find Familiar, Magic Missile
Level 2 Suggestion, Levitate, Invisibility, Hold Person
Level 3 Fireball, Haste, Summon Undead, Water Breathing
Level 4 Dimension Door, Wall of Fire.
I haven't stated the "array of ability scores, four proficiencies, and a background feature" as a strength of the wizard. Just that it is what both characters get as a baseline.
(I'm ignoring the tool, instrument, or language proficiencies, but it could be argued these don't often come into use much).


I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here. Can you explain?

You're after level 7 spell loadout? I think this is the one one of the wizards in the group used at that level:
Cantrips Mold Earth, Shape Water, Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp,
Level 1 Tasha's Caustic Brew, Shield, Mage armour, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Identify, Find Familiar, Magic Missile
Level 2 Suggestion, Levitate, Invisibility, Hold Person
Level 3 Fireball, Haste, Summon Undead, Water Breathing
Level 4 Dimension Door, Wall of Fire.

Is that a spellbook? prepared spell list? Also do rogues fighters & barbarians also get to enjoy quantum skill proficiencies & attribute arrays or is that a perk reserved only for wizards? If wizards in your game have quantum attribute arrays & skills while other classes don't I could certainly see how that could lead to your position but that is a problem caused by the addition of a quantum character rather than that character's class. Non-quantum skills & attribute are very much required by the AL rules @Flamestrike suggested using

 

[Xeviat]

Thanks to those who have kept the thread on track!

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Thanks to those who have kept the thread on track!

Apologies.

I'd vote for Long Rest. Having top-end spells refresh on a short rest would be a bit of an issue I think.
Also for all classes, having some "big guns" that you can pull out when you really have to is nice, whereas with all short rest abilities, you're using everything every few fights, reducing their impact and power level.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Its no different to a Wizard player who only selects combat spells. He's going to suck at the other pillars.

It is different, and you're illustrating that for me with this claim.

The difference is that for a Wizard to change what he's focused on, he just memorizes different spells that day. For a Fighter to change it, he needs to build a new character from the ground up, likely including his subclass. If you can't see that as a major difference, then I'm not sure how to help you.

 

[loverdrive]

Its no different to a Wizard player who only selects combat spells. He's going to suck at the other pillars.

If only there wasn't like 0-1 viable combat spells on each level, out of wizard's metric crapton...

 

[tetrasodium]

It is different, and you're illustrating that for me with this claim.

The difference is that for a Wizard to change what he's focused on, he just memorizes different spells that day. For a Fighter to change it, he needs to build a new character from the ground up, likely including his subclass. If you can't see that as a major difference, then I'm not sure how to help you.

Don't forget, the people saying that there are no issues with how wizards get hit by 5e's attempts to overcompensate for 3.5's problems are the ones who said that the wizard's real strength lies in pillars other than combat. When asked to justify that earlier with @Flamestrike's 7th level start here with here being what the wizard knows after coming off their last adventure there was one refusal to show that strength with a concrete wizard & a second who provided what might be a prepped list might be a partial spellbook & is absolutely quantum skills plus quantum attribute array.

A wizard can only change their spell list to different spells in their spellbook & the problem there lies in the fact that many of the spells you are alluding to are too niche, barely needed, or do something trivially handled by a character who far outpaces wizard in he combat pillar. If you think your position is as strong as your posts suggest why not post a full wizard for that average adventuring day & prove it to the people who just don't get how great wizards are like you do?

 

[Asisreo]

I put Long Rest for the post, but honestly, I absolutely enjoy what 5e did with the varying amounts of recharge making for a more dynamic and interesting breadth of character options.

I'm glad Warlocks are mostly short rest, Sorcerers are mostly long rest. It makes it extremely fun to play the different classes without a seeming overlap.

One gripe I had of 4e was that everyone had the same recharge type and the same amounts of powers. In theory, it gave players equity. In reality, it gave more power to players that were neither overwhelmed by the game or could leverage their system mastery that much more.

In 5e, if the DM sees the Warlock players struggle to keep up, they could easily incorporate an extra short rest or two in their adventure design. If the sorcerer struggles, you could reduce the number of encounters between long rests.

 

[Stalker0]

Alright, here is a 7th level wizard spell list. Go to work people!

In terms of bonus spells. I assumed a 7th level fighter would at least have access to plate armor and a greatsword in most games (1550 gp). If I give wizards 1 extra spellbook spell per level that 500 gp, so to keep things simple I gave them 3 additional spells of each level. That's technically a little less "equipment" than the fighter has, but close enough for a reasonable comparison (I will also throw in the 25 GP for the augury material component). Its much less than what is assumed in the standard treasure hordes (D&D 5E - Deconstructing 5e: Typical Wealth by Level), but we will assume the rest is magic items or other things.

Known Spells
1st level (11 spells known) - Charm Person, Comprehend Languages (R), Detect Magic (R), False Life, Find Familiar (R), Fog Cloud, Grease, Mage Armor, Shield, Magic Missile, Unseen Servant (R)
2nd level (7 spells known) - Augury (R), Enhance Ability, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Scorching Ray, Suggestion, Web
3rd level (7 spells known) - Dispel Magic, Fireball, Fly, Hypnotic Pattern, Leomund's Tiny Hut (R), Speak with Dead, Water Breathing (R)
4th level (5 spells known) - Arcane Eye, Banishment, Evard's Black Tentacles, Fabricate, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere

Prepared Spells (Adventuring Day)
*Remember that Wizard's have automatic access to ritual spells. We will assume 11 spells prepared (aka 18 int)

1st level - Mage Armor, Grease, Shield... Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Unseen Servant
2nd level - Scorching Ray, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Web...Augury
3rd level - Dispel Magic, Fireball... Leomund's Tiny Hut, Water Breathing
4th level - Banishment, Evard's Black Tentacles

Prepared Spells (Regular Day)
1st level - Charm Person, Mage Armor, Grease... Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Unseen Servant
2nd level - Enhance Ability, Misty Step, Suggestion...Augury
3rd level - Dispel Magic, Hypnotic Patter, Speak with Dead... Leomund's Tiny Hut, Water Breathing
4th level - Arcane Eye, Fabricate

So before we debate spell lists today vs the next day etc, in terms of all the time things:

• Has a familiar that can scout anything with 100 feet, and can be resummoned if killed (aka risk free to the party). Its tiny, and you can cast spells through it.
• Your entire party has water breathing, all day every day.
• Can at any point summon a servant to press a button, pull a lever, grab an object.....again risk free to the party.
• Can speak to anyone regardless of language
• Can prepare a nigh invincible fortress to rest in or to lay siege to an area (tiny hut).
• Can determine the best directions to go in labyrinth areas (augury).

So that's before I've seen expended a spell slot. But I think far too many people get caught up in the "adventuring day balance". They will go "oh well the wizard has X slots and the fighter can swing his sword all day". But that's not where the real cinematic imbalance comes in, I mean sure the wizard can hold his own here, but its after the adventure where the wizard gets to really shine.

• Has a lengthy conversation where he gets to role play with the dead.
• Can have advantage on any roll he desires through enhance ability (this spell was not on the wizard spell list originally but has been added in from Tasha's and is considered standard on most SRD sites I see now).
• Can use suggestions to start influencing the people around them.
• Can scout an entire area, again with no risk to themselves.
• Can fabricate all sorts of useful items and objects.

There is no fighter alive that has the versatility of a wizard, not during adventuring days, and certainly not even close when you consider non-adventuring days. Now the fighter is good and fun and a lot of people like it, but trying to argue they are equally good in social and exploration pillars.... I'm sorry but I have seen well played 5e wizards.... its not even close.

 

[Stalker0]

One gripe I had of 4e was that everyone had the same recharge type and the same amounts of powers. In theory, it gave players equity.

It also wasn't true in play. While on paper everyone had "equal power", in practice different classes had their strength in different areas.

For example, Wizard dailies in 4e are incredible, just encounter changing. When the wizard pulled out a daily, the fight was just fundamentally different. Fighters actually had very strong encounter powers, but weaker dailies over all. This isn't noted anywhere, but over years of 4e play I noticed it.

 

[Xeviat]

Apologies.

I'd vote for Long Rest. Having top-end spells refresh on a short rest would be a bit of an issue I think.
Also for all classes, having some "big guns" that you can pull out when you really have to is nice, whereas with all short rest abilities, you're using everything every few fights, reducing their impact and power level.

Well, again, I should have said short rest like the warlock. Top end spells would still be long rest. I'm actually exploring restructuring the warlock to have the short rest slots grow in number faster but level slower (to half caster progression), but have them gain their long rest slots earlier. They'd end in the same spot at 17th, but have more slots to play with per short rest and have their higher slots be more limited.