D&D General When did D&D gods first rely on their worshipers?

[Stormonu]

I think it may also make an appearance in Lhankmar, whose dead gods sometimes come out to bust heads and remind the populace they still exist.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

But it had come up in Dragon at least once before that, in Ed Greenwood's "Down to Earth Divinity" in Dragon #54:

The Greenwood reference likely came because of the prior reference in Dragon #52; The Role of the Cleric (which in turn post-dates Deities & Demigods):

"No discussion of clerics makes much sense if the role of the gods is not examined. The powers of a cleric are bestowed upon him by his patron god. Why would a god waste time giving spells to a cleric? Why do gods bother dealing with mortals at all? Why would the gods encourage mortals to pray and sacrifice to them? Power, that’s why. Each act of worship provides the god with a little bit of power. This is what separates the divine from the mortal. If a god wants to stay alive, he must have worshipers." (emphasis supplied)



EDIT: Weirdly, I looked at Gods, Demigods, and Heroes, suspecting it would be in there as well. Not only as it not, it was contraindicated even though Ward & Kuntz had a hand in it as well. Some of the deities even specifically say that "like most of the gods {Ahto} isn't particularly interested in being worshiped by humans." Consistency ... not always a big thing back then!

 

[Davies]

I’m no expert on Gnosticism, but it definitely seems like a strange way to frame it to me...

It's possible that he meant Stoicism rather than Gnosticism, since the Moralia includes an assertion similar to it. ("And we all know, the Stoics believe the same as we do concerning the Daemons, and that amongst the great company of Gods which are commonly believed, there is but one who is eternal and immortal; all the rest, having been born in time, shall end by death."; De Defectu Oraculorum section 19)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I’m no expert on Gnosticism, but it definitely seems like a strange way to frame it to me...

Pratchett was working without the benefit of the World Wide Web in 1992, so he was essentially prisoner to whatever theologians he could get to answer his questions by phone.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I never got this line of logic because how did they come about to begin with? they could not have created any one thus aside from getting power why worship them?

 

[Parmandur]

Pratchett is heavily influenced by Leiber's Lankhmar books here as in many places (Ankh-Morpork is blatently Lankhmar, at least thart's how it started: same with Greyhawk and Waterdeep), as were Greenwood and Gygax: Saberhagen is a similar influence. From the TV Tropes article:

"Fritz Leiber's stories of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser have a unique take: all temples in the city of Lankhmar are located along the Street of the Gods. Less-popular religions are located at the end of the street closest to the city gate; the more numerous a deity's followers, the farther from the gate his temple is located. Religions ebb and fall up and down the street throughout Lankhmar's history."

"In [SAberhagen's] the Book of Swords, when people find out gods can be killed, their faith is shaken. Eventually, it is discovered that humans created gods by believing... which they stop, destroying all the gods. This leads to the question of "If humans made the gods, where did humans come from?" (Inversion of a question often asked of theists in Real Life.)"

 

[Davies]

I never got this line of logic because how did they come about to begin with? they could not have created any one thus aside from getting power why worship them?

The classical notion is that there is a single entity who created the original deities, who in turn created others, who then (often several generations later) created mortal life. In this notion, while the deities get power from being worshipped, this adds to what power they already have, and they do not require it to exist, but will nevertheless stop existing in the fullness of time.

A more modern notion is that the deities are created from mortal belief, having no power beyond what they are given by this, requiring worship to continue existing and dying without it. In this instance, as you say, they did not create mortal life, rather it created them. As to why you should worship them if this is the case -- it is typical for this school of thought to suggest that you probably shouldn't.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

I'm taking my second lap through the Discworld books, the first since Sir Terry died, and I've reached 1992's Small Gods, arguably his best work. (And it's pretty close to a must-read for players of clerics, paladins and the DMs that want to make religion a focus in a D&D universe.)

In the book, Pratchett lays out that gods -- other than a hypothetical but unseen creator god -- rely on the belief of worshipers to survive. Too few, and they dwindle in power, becoming disembodied spirits with only the loosest sense of identity, if they lose all their worshipers. In contrast, a god with a great deal of worshipers becomes ever more powerful, eventually becoming the focus of world-spanning religions and having all sorts of supernatural powers at their disposal.

This is also, of course, how gods in many D&D worlds work, including the Forgotten Realms, but the idea was present in multiple 2E books outside that setting, as I recall.

Where did this idea first originate? In Small Gods, Pratchett says this idea originated with the Gnostic Heresy, but a look at the (somewhat impenetrable) Wikipedia entry doesn't discuss the notion that belief empowers gods, at least not that I can see. Pratchett was familiar with roleplaying games -- the protagonists hear gigantic invisible dice rolling off in the distance multiple times in his first two Discworld novels -- so it's not impossible that he got the idea from a D&D book. But D&D authors are even more aware of Pratchett, and it seems like they would be more likely to get the idea from him, similar to how the tension between Law and Chaos comes from Moorcock.

Or is this all from a pre-existing source that both Pratchett and D&D authors took the idea from? Anyone know?

Actually its more complicated then that for Gods in FR. Worshippers we needed post ToT, but not before, as punishment by AO, but worshippers were not the only source of a Gods power in FR, just a needed one. Another would be the success of their "portifilio" we don't even know in 5e if Worshippers are still needed. FR Gods are not Theros' Gods, many FR Gods predate the world itself and mortal Toril races, and many exist on other worlds entirely. Again the whole needing worshipper then at least in FR was punishment to the Gods for Neglecting their faithful by AO. This blew up in AO's face and the Gods got too invovled in their worshippers lives, hence post Sundering restrictions on a Gods ability to get invovled in their worshippers lives.

 

[Don Durito]

I never got this line of logic because how did they come about to begin with? they could not have created any one thus aside from getting power why worship them?

You need to read Small Gods by Terry Pratchett.

Although I'm not fond of treating gods this way. I tend to prefer an approach where gods gain power by seizing hold of some particular archetypal conduit and holding onto it - a bit like the Malazan book of the Fallen.

So you can kill the god of death, but before too long a new god of death will arise because there's a vacant throne that needs to be filled (although if the last god of death was a massive naughty word then it may be a considerable improvement).

From time to time, if mortal society changes a new throne may appear waiting to be filled - this makes for a good campaign hook.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Actually its more complicated then that for Gods in FR. Worshippers we needed post ToT, but not before, as punishment by AO, but worshippers were not the only source of a Gods power in FR, just a needed one. Another would be the success of their "portifilio" we don't even know in 5e if Worshippers are still needed. FR Gods are not Theros' Gods, many FR Gods predate the world itself and mortal Toril races, and many exist on other worlds entirely. Again the whole needing worshipper then at least in FR was punishment to the Gods for Neglecting their faithful by AO. This blew up in AO's face and the Gods got too invovled in their worshippers lives, hence post Sundering restrictions on a Gods ability to get invovled in their worshippers lives.

This kind of thing is why everyone wants to blow up Toril.