D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[ph0rk]

Also one often ignored anti-death spell is Clone. I don't know why liches exist if this is possible... Its rather creepy and cool in its own right though but it simply is a death immunity in effect.

Yep, if you go back to some of the source material death was far more certain.

Of course, wizards also tended to only be able to memorize 4-5 spells, magical items expired after use, etc.

 

[Flamestrike]

You don't need to engage claims that run counter to the prevailing opinion on their terms. In much the same way I don't need to break out the astrolabe and ruler to demonstrate a flat earther is incorrect.

There is no prevailing consensus though. Only your constant parrotting of one.

Youre making a truth claim (casters are better than martials in the game). I'm asking you to prove this claim to me.

I'm also saying, I would be happy to construct an experiment, featuring a 6 encounter, 2 short rest adventuring day (using DMG guidelines) at a level of your choosing, using a 2 person party of a spell caster designed by you, and a non spellcaster of the same level designed by me, and see if your theory holds up.

 

[ph0rk]

There is no prevailing consensus though

Just because you think it is wrong doesn't mean it isn't there.

If it is so clear cut, demonstrate caster inferiority - bring a preponderance of evidence.

 

[Gammadoodler]

You keep saying its a gotcha, what part of my experiment makes it a gotcha?

I've been honest in my replies. Point out where I haven't been.

Even if you don't think it will prove anything, it will. To me. And as someone that's trying to understand your camp of the debate, it would be a good thing to have common ground between understanding. But I have to see it first. It isn't a gotcha. No wool over your eyes. They aren't "deadly" for the level, as I said. The people that figured out the encounter can verify that.

If I'm not mistaken, the contention here is that it is a "gotcha" scenario in that it is comparing the most favorable fighter contribution (or close) to the least favorable caster contribution (or close). And claiming a result as proof is disingenuous.

In that post even, an alternative scenario was provided to illustrate this.

Essentially the point is, in combat, to counter a martial, all you have to do is add enemies. It almost doesn't matter what type or level, just more. This does not work the same for casters. For casters you have to add more, space them appropriately, give them special abilities, etc. or they are just more fuel for the fireball.

There is not a converse utility scenario that I can think of. For essentially all martials, walls, pits, distance, environmental effects are more than adequate barriers to performance in most cases.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Sure, you absolutely can do that in D&D. You just need to remove certain spells.

My experience is: these things happen even with all spells in play - if the dm throws enough epic stuff into the game. Not just epic hp totals, but actually epic monsters with epic spells, and epic treasures, and so on.

Basically, the dm needs to know what epic dnd is supposed to look like.

 

[Flamestrike]

Just because you think it is wrong doesn't mean it isn't there.

It's not there. There isnt even a consensus in this thread, and a search of the internet reveals the same.

Casters (long rest types) only dominater in single encounter adventuring days. Martials dominates in longer ones.

The fact you repeatedly refuse to engage in any effort to establish your theory as being correct is telling.

 

[Flamestrike]

Essentially the point is, in combat, to counter a martial, all you have to do is add enemies. It almost doesn't matter what type or level, just more. This does not work the same for casters.

Oh yes it does, because as a caster, your abilities are all reliant on resource usage (spell slots). Once they're gone, you're a dude in a bathrobe and a pointy hat.

You're looking at encounters in isolation when you need to be looking at them in the context of a full adventuring day.

 

[Asisreo]

The spell has a a 10' radius. They're trapped in 10' radius spheres (20' across at their highest point, more than enough to trap a Large creature). They have nowhere to go.

I think you're confused about the casting time portion.

Magic Circle has a 1-minute casting time.

Certain spells (including spells cast as rituals) require more time to cast: minutes or even hours. When you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action or reaction, you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your concentration while you do so. If your concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you don't expend a spell slot. If you want to try casting the spell again, you must start over.

So since you're concentrating, Wall of Force gets dropped before the actual casting is up.

I mean really, this is a bit pointless. My Simulacrum and I could simply both cast Meteor Swarm, inflicting 80d6 damage on each of them which they're not resistant to and likely kills both, or simply banish them inside the Wall of Force (again nixing their saves with Portent) presuming they don't have readied actions.

Your simulacrum doesn't have a Meteor Swarm because it came from a Wish spell, its missing that 9th level spell. They also have advantage on the save, taking an average of 140 on failure, but has a 57% chance of success and instead taking an average of 70 damage. That's alot but you wouldn't be able to cast foresight, and regardless, they would be dead.

In order for you to banish them, you'd need to drop concentration on your Wall of Force, which is fine but if they fail, they are plainly free. I'll assume portent if favorable. Even still, the round you Wall of Force'd them is the round they would have turned invisible, and you can't banish them anymore since they're not a target you can see anymore.

Fine then. I'll wish the iron and silver into existence.

This inflicts the Wish-Penalty and you may be unable to regain Wish.

I haven't done any Gotcha, just clarifying the rules of the game.

 

[Asisreo]

If I'm not mistaken, the contention here is that it is a "gotcha" scenario in that it is comparing the most favorable fighter contribution (or close) to the least favorable caster contribution (or close). And claiming a result as proof is disingenuous.

Anybody that looked at the MM can verify that these monsters have

Spoiler: Creature Ability

Resistance to Physical Attacks, a fly speed of 120ft, and some inherent ability to kite

I haven't even verified yet, but martials might also be in a disadvantaged position if they aren't a specific type or they have very few inherent counters.

This enemy is neither for or against either martials or casters, if anything, they're just kinda strong.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

My experience is: these things happen even with all spells in play - if the dm throws enough epic stuff into the game. Not just epic hp totals, but actually epic monsters with epic spells, and epic treasures, and so on.

Basically, the dm needs to know what epic dnd is supposed to look like.

Well, I can't see how you can have adventures with epic travel if easy travel spells exist. Like you cannot have adventure about navigating your aether ship through the Shifting Empyrean Seas to reach the Liminal Shores of the Whispering Isle upon which the City of Crystal Tears is located, if you can just use Plane Shift to get directly next to the City of Crystal Tears.