D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[Don Durito]

Actually I went further than saying that question has a subjective answer. I went on to say that "i can't think of any ways it could be measured"... since you quoted that part too but didn't suggest one while lamenting reticence to expand into the realm of our subjectivity rather than suggesting one am I right in assuming you can not either?

Sorry. I can't make any sense of this at all. Grammar's messed up and I have no idea what point you are making or even if you understood what I initially said (but suspect not).

 

[Flamestrike]

That might be partly true, but the high level D&D with its spells often doesn't feel epic, it feels dull. Like I want high level characters traversing fantastic landscapes with their magical mounts or flying ships, fighting demigods and demon kings. In Exalted I get that. In D&D high level characters just teleport around and are literally immune to death.

Immune to death as long as there is a Cleric nearby and a spare diamond.

And teleport chews up a 7th level slot, and has a 43 percent chance of mishap (presuming you've only got a description of the area to work on such as a map) doing 3d10 force damage and a reroll for potentially an infinite damage loop.

If you've actually played a game at high level, and you were 'teleporting around and immune to death' that's your DMs fault, not the games fault.

 

[ph0rk]

That might be partly true, but the high level D&D with its spells often doesn't feel epic, it feels dull. Like I want high level characters traversing fantastic landscapes with their magical mounts or flying ships, fighting demigods and demon kings. In Exalted I get that. In D&D high level characters just teleport around and are literally immune to death.

Teleport isn't nearly what it was in previous editions - and that's good, it was brokenly bad in 3e, and only 5th level.

The immune to death thing is system wide - death doesn't come as easily as 2e, that's for sure.

 

[Flamestrike]

Because you're clearly trying to set up a gotcha. You aren't even pretending to be exploratory, you're constructing a scenario to be right. Pass.

The entirety of the rules are open to you. Construct scenarios and report back when you have clear proof of martial superiority. If you can't do that, you might not understand the rules, or you might not be arguing in good faith.

I see why you got into DnD now.

And I literally AM going by the rules. Youre the one not arguing in good faith and simply repeating your conclusions without putting them to the test. Im literally using a standard adventuring day, as per the DMG, using the guidelines in that section to craft half a dozen encounters, with time for 2 short rests, using the adventuring day budget as provided.

Again; you pick the level. I'll happily craft an adventure for that level and we can put it to the test.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I have come to the conclusion a while ago that D&D and those in its genre are bogged down by its refusal to make a a simple and complex versions of the fighter and rogue. The warlock should no have been

5e Missed the boat in making a Simple Warrior, Complex Weaponmaster, and a Fighter somewhere in between.
Same with the Jack- > Rogue -> Scoundrel.

DMs and setting can choose which ones they allow.

Warlock is the best place for a simple caster: all you need is your pew pews, but you're a spellcaster with a wand and everything.

 

[Minigiant]

Actually that's not quite right in 5e either. In past editions spell slot growth continued to grow all the way to 20 at a pretty standardized pace. In 5e the scaling growth changes at 5th level slots then again at 6tg level. Thst prevents casters from continuing to grow in the way you suggest.

Yes but at those levels, your 1st through 5th level spells no longer factor into combat encounters. So all the lower slots can be converted to OOC just like 2e and 3e.

 

[ph0rk]

Youre the one not arguing in good faith and simply repeating your conclusions without putting them to the test.

You don't need to engage claims that run counter to the prevailing opinion on their terms. In much the same way I don't need to break out the astrolabe and ruler to demonstrate a flat earther is incorrect.

The position that casters are weaker than martials in 5e is not the prevailing one, so the onus of demonstrating that they are is on you. If it is as clear as you argue it is, demonstrating it should be simple.

 

[jmartkdr2]

That might be partly true, but the high level D&D with its spells often doesn't feel epic, it feels dull. Like I want high level characters traversing fantastic landscapes with their magical mounts or flying ships, fighting demigods and demon kings. In Exalted I get that. In D&D high level characters just teleport around and are literally immune to death.

The first part sounds a lot like the high-level dnd I've played.

But I knew how to ask for it in a way the dm would respond to.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Teleport isn't nearly what it was in previous editions - and that's good, it was brokenly bad in 3e, and only 5th level.

The immune to death thing is system wide - death doesn't come as easily as 2e, that's for sure.

Yeah, I appreciate that they tried to limit some of this stuff in 5e. I still don't think they went far enough with certain things. Scrying can still greatly increase the usability of these spells. And with 'teleport' I don't just mean the spell with that name, but other fast travel methods such as Transport Via Plants, Plane Shift etc. I just feel that 'we must travel to place X' is such a core element of many fantasy stories that things that can simply bypass that, even potentially, should not exist outside the GM fiat.

And the death thing is just silly. I usually just delete all 'cancel death' spells except Revify as they utterly kill so many plots and potential of drama. Again, think how many fantasy stories simply couldn't happen if the characters would just bring people back from dead.

Also one often ignored anti-death spell is Clone. I don't know why liches exist if this is possible... Its rather creepy and cool in its own right though but it simply is a death immunity in effect.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The first part sounds a lot like the high-level dnd I've played.

But I knew how to ask for it in a way the dm would respond to.

Sure, you absolutely can do that in D&D. You just need to remove certain spells.