D&D General Alignment: the problem is Chaos

[Aging Bard]

Havent read entire thread yet, but this is interesting, we could have;

LG, G, CG,
L, N, C
LE, E, CE

Yup, this is exactly my view and I could happily adopt these labels.

 

[SkidAce]

I feel that true Lawful stances are very rare. It would mean a kind of conformity that is lethal and oblivious to the reality of a situation.

Yes, which is why in the original Moorcockian philosophy, extreme chaos OR extreme law was bad for, well, people.

So the Agents of Neutrality (?) tended to the Cosmic Balance.

 

[MoonSong]

Yes, this is very close to my outlined view of Chaos in the original post ("your own drive and instincts" = "your code"). My comment about collective-individual was about some other prior comments.

But it is the same discussion. In the Lawful-Chaotic spectrum, Law isn't the only concern, but it is rather one extreme of the scale. A neutral in this scale cares about laws somehow, and honors them somehow, but balances that caring with caring about individual drive and desire. On the other end, a chaotic cares nothing about law and everything about the individual desires. In this way, the axis is about the dialectic conflict between two elements, not just the one (Law).

 

[Aging Bard]

But it is the same discussion. In the Lawful-Chaotic spectrum, Law isn't the only concern, but it is rather one extreme of the scale. A neutral in this scale cares about laws somehow, and honors them somehow, but balances that caring with caring about individual drive and desire. On the other end, a chaotic cares nothing about law and everything about the individual desires. In this way, the axis is about the dialectic conflict between two elements, not just the one (Law).

I think I understand your views, but they are not mine. Because we have decoupled Good/Evil from Law/Chaos, I don't view Law/Chaos as so diametrically opposed, that's what Good/Evil fulfill. I've given my definition of Law and Chaos. I have also noted in prior replies that I do not subscribe to Neutral as between alignment poles, but rather as de-emphasizing a pole. So a Neutral Good person is not in between Law and Chaos; rather, they don't care about Law or Chaos versus Good, Good overrides consideration of any Law or personal code (Chaos). I realize this is debatable, and that's fine.

 

[Mercurius]

Haven't read the thread so don't know if I'm repeating what someone has already said, but I see Law vs Chaos as the similar dynamic between Community vs. Individuality - both aren't inherently good or bad, although both can have good and bad versions.

So a Lawful person prioritizes community, while a chaotic person prioritizes autonomy and individuality.

Here's an alternate hypothesis: Law, Neutrality, and Chaos are Gygax's take (conscious or subconscious) on Plato's Good, True, and Beautiful, respectively. Goodness is intersubjectivity (ethics), Truth is objectivity (science), and Chaos is subjectivity (art).

Good characters seek to actualize and glorify in these three, with LG, NG, and CG emphasizing one of the three. Evil characters seek to pervert it. So an LE person would tend to work through organizations, seeking to perfect society and/or create a self-serving society.NE will work through deception, seeking to twist truth; CE will seek self-gratification and cruelty as a kind of art - for their own pleasure. So:

LE: Control/Power
NE: Deception/Confusion
CE: Self-gratification/Cruelty
CN: Hedonism/Pleasure
N: "The Tao"
LN: Structure/Organization
LG: Goodness/Kindness
NG: Truth/Insight
CG: Beauty/Joy

Or something like that. Just an idea.

 

[Mercurius]

But it is the same discussion. In the Lawful-Chaotic spectrum, Law isn't the only concern, but it is rather one extreme of the scale. A neutral in this scale cares about laws somehow, and honors them somehow, but balances that caring with caring about individual drive and desire. On the other end, a chaotic cares nothing about law and everything about the individual desires. In this way, the axis is about the dialectic conflict between two elements, not just the one (Law).

I would change this to a chaotic cares less about shared goodness and objective truth, and more about subjective experience. Think Walt Whitman.

 

[Aging Bard]

Haven't read the thread so don't know if I'm repeating what someone has already said, but I see Law vs Chaos as the similar dynamic between Community vs. Individuality - both aren't inherently good or bad, although both can have good and bad versions.

Hey, Mercurius, thanks for posting! I know you are a thoughtful commenter. I'll just say that the community-individuality idea has been mentioned multiple times, it is not my view, and if you have a chance to read the thread I think you will see what exactly is my view. I would greatly appreciate your input if you have a chance to review the thread, but no worries if you have better things to do!

 

[Mercurius]

Hey, Mercurius, thanks for posting! I know you are a thoughtful commenter. I'll just say that the community-individuality idea has been mentioned multiple times, it is not my view, and if you have a chance to read the thread I think you will see what exactly is my view. I would greatly appreciate your input if you have a chance to review the thread, but no worries if you have better things to do!

Ha! OK, I'll check it out.

 

[Aging Bard]

I would change this to a chaotic cares less about shared goodness and objective truth, and more about subjective experience. Think Walt Whitman.

This is very insightful, a good analogy. I'd urge to read the original post and some of the comments to get the whole thesis.

 

[Flamestrike]

A Lawful person accepts the legitimacy of law that is external to themselves; a Chaotic person does not.

No, not at all. 'Lawful; does not mean 'follows external laws' and Chaotic does not mean 'Breaks laws'.

A Lawful PC is discipled, honorable (possibly a twisted sense of honor for those LE types), and respects tradition, family and honor. They follow a code of conduct, and tend to be predictable and disciplined.

Frank Castle is LE even though he breaks the law on a daily basis, and lives outside of it because he fits the above description. He is discipled and honorable, and respects tradition, family and honor. He has devoted himself to a world without criminals, and is rigid and inflexible in his actions.

A Chaotic PC is unpredictable, reckless, impulsive and independent. They rail against family, honor and tradition. They have no discernable code of conduct, and break the rules of that code when it suits them.

Anakin Skywalker is CG, even though he is a military commander, part of and a follower of an established religious order with strict rules, and acts on behalf of a lawful regime. He is reckless, independent and unpredictable and willing to break rules, buck tradition and do what he feels is best in the moment, rather follow any code or rules.