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D&D General Alignment: the problem is Chaos

I kind of wish D&D would just replace the lore for yugoloths with something more like the daemons from Pathfinder. They're a way more interesting take on Neutral Evil fiends. Heck, even the sorrowsworn would make for more interesting Neutral Evil fiends.

I'm amused that they brought back yugoloths into 5E just to demote them in the lore from "secretly the first fiends" to "Asmodeus paid some night hags to invent yugoloths for some reason".

I do have my own answer for what that reason was (Asmodeus and Graz'zt are secretly allies and the creation of the yugoloths are part of a very long-term plan to unite all fiends against the forces of Good), but I don't find yugoloths interesting enough to ever follow through with it.

Well, okay, I do like merrenoloths if only because they're low-CR evil fiends that are so awesome with ships that they can magically ensure they cannot sink even if the hull is breached. That's amazing enough that even good characters would be tempted to hire a merrenoloth for safe travel in the Lower Planes.
 

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Sithlord

Adventurer
I kind of wish D&D would just replace the lore for yugoloths with something more like the daemons from Pathfinder. They're a way more interesting take on Neutral Evil fiends. Heck, even the sorrowsworn would make for more interesting Neutral Evil fiends.

I'm amused that they brought back yugoloths into 5E just to demote them in the lore from "secretly the first fiends" to "Asmodeus paid some night hags to invent yugoloths for some reason".

I do have my own answer for what that reason was (Asmodeus and Graz'zt are secretly allies and the creation of the yugoloths are part of a very long-term plan to unite all fiends against the forces of Good), but I don't find yugoloths interesting enough to ever follow through with it.

Well, okay, I do like merrenoloths if only because they're low-CR evil fiends that are so awesome with ships that they can magically ensure they cannot sink even if the hull is breached. That's amazing enough that even good characters would be tempted to hire a merrenoloth for safe travel in the Lower Planes.
Planescape yugoloths are my favorite. I love their lore. To each their own.
 

bloodtide

Adventurer
The problem is both Law and Chaos get mixed up, even in lots of offical rule books. Law is not "obeying the law", Cosmic Law, or better Cosmic Order is structure, orginization and planning. In nature it is thing like honeybees making perfect hexagons vs mice just making a mess. Or how weather is just about 100% pure random, as after all forecasting is another word for guessing....but the phases of the Moon are 100% exact on a set unchanging cycle.

When you get to people it is someone who carries around food and kitchen items and plans out ever future meal vs someone who just finds food when they are hungry.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
That chart is no different than the standard nine alignments. It just removes the N from the neutral portion that would still be there. NG is Good that is neutral with respect to lawful or chaotic, or G.
I know, but by removing the N, it keys players in to the concept.

You are Good. Good is the goal. etc.

Puts the Good front and center. Its an interesting though experiment, I actually have no problems with aligment as is, its always been "guidelines".
 



Sithlord

Adventurer
I think they should have gone further in terms of stripping it then.
Why? People that didn’t like it primarily ignored it in previous editions and it was there for those that liked it. Oh wait we were so obsessed with playing like everyone else that we could pick and choose the rules we like. Sorry I forgot how so many are obsessed that everyone must play the same.
 

ph0rk

Friendship is Magic, and Magic is Heresy.
Why? People that didn’t like it primarily ignored it in previous editions and it was there for those that liked it. Oh wait we were so obsessed with playing like everyone else that we could pick and choose the rules we like. Sorry I forgot how so many are obsessed that everyone must play the same.
Because we can’t pick and choose which rules we like because there are no longer any meaningful rules related to alignment in 5e.

I‘d have been fine with an optional system that mimicked how alignment worked in previous editions, but it is not there.
 


Sithlord

Adventurer
Because we can’t pick and choose which rules we like because there are no longer any meaningful rules related to alignment in 5e.

I‘d have been fine with an optional system that mimicked how alignment worked in previous editions, but it is not there.
Why not Just use what was written in a previous edition then?
 

ph0rk

Friendship is Magic, and Magic is Heresy.
Why not Just use what was written in a previous edition then?
That’s like saying “just homebrew it”.

Anyone can do that, true, but it doesn’t mean the system was well designed in that regard.

I can homebrew psionics, too. That doesn’t mean 5e did psionics well.
 

Sithlord

Adventurer
That’s like saying “just homebrew it”.

Anyone can do that, true, but it doesn’t mean the system was well designed in that regard.

I can homebrew psionics, too. That doesn’t mean 5e did psionics well.
If my expect someone else to create what you want you will never have it or have very little. I see people on these boards offering solutions to many problems that people say they have. And when someone says no thank you I will wait until wotc officially does what I want it’s like why is someone even bringing it up. So these people just want refer to page 234 second column paragraph 2 in book xyz.
 

ph0rk

Friendship is Magic, and Magic is Heresy.
If my expect someone else to create what you want you will never have it or have very little. I see people on these boards offering solutions to many problems that people say they have. And when someone says no thank you I will wait until wotc officially does what I want it’s like why is someone even bringing it up. So these people just want refer to page 234 second column paragraph 2 in book xyz.
The point of a system is that it is a system.

If there are no mechanical rules for or impacts of an alignment “system” then it isn’t a system at all and some badly written fluff.
 

Sithlord

Adventurer
The point of a system is that it is a system.

If there are no mechanical rules for or impacts of an alignment “system” then it isn’t a system at all and some badly written fluff.
Then don’t use it. Do you need x number of people on a forum or a letter from wotc to give u permission to not use it.
 



ph0rk

Friendship is Magic, and Magic is Heresy.
The point is not whether or not I can create an alignment system but whether or not WOTC did a good job importing it into or stripping it from 5e.

They appear to have tried to split the difference, which proves no usable crunch system. We pay them for crunch systems.
 

The point is not whether or not I can create an alignment system but whether or not WOTC did a good job importing it into or stripping it from 5e.

They appear to have tried to split the difference, which proves no usable crunch system. We pay them for crunch systems.
A character has always things that are not tied to systems. Name, personality traits, ideal, flaw, bond etc. Alignment is just a roleplaying aide. A terrible one, but still.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
The point is not whether or not I can create an alignment system but whether or not WOTC did a good job importing it into or stripping it from 5e.

They appear to have tried to split the difference, which proves no usable crunch system. We pay them for crunch systems.
What's the problem with alignment being fluff? It's fluff that most people find useful.
 

ph0rk

Friendship is Magic, and Magic is Heresy.
What's the problem with alignment being fluff? It's fluff that most people find useful.
No problem at all, fluff is fine. There is enough remaining cruft that makes it seem like just a little bit more (mechanically) than fluff, almost a system. Being in between is what isn’t good. The fluff and system should be neatly separated, so players can use what they wish, without having to RTFM multiple times until it clicks which is which.
 

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