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D&D General Story Now, Skilled Play, and Elephants

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
Classic skilled play (B/X say, as a baseline) also has a significant element of resource management, which 5E does not. That's not good or bad, its just a thing. 5E can do some parts of classic skilled play, sort of. The issue is that the system itself pushes back against the play style. 5E characters have an enormous number of widgets and rules compared to B/X characters, and those obviate SP to a certain extent, at least insofar as they effect SP elements. Even the HP levels and healing in 5E push back against SP because there's rarely the kind of HP scarcity that would, for example, mitigate for retreat, at least in some groups. Another element that pushes back is the CR system. 'Balanced encounters' don't really emphasize honest risk appraisal, not does it foster creative encounter problem solving. That certainly isn't to say that you can't have those things in 5E, just that the system isn't helping.

None of the above is to suggest that 5E is worse, or bad, I quite enjoy it, but I wouldn't try to shoehorn a serious SP style campaign into it. If I want that I'll run B/X or one of the OSR systems that are actually build with SP in mind. If I'm going to play 5E I want to lean into its strengths, not paper over its cracks.
 

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Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
Also, I'm kind of surprised that there are still issues untying the word skilled from skilled play. All RPGs require skill, and most systems require rather a lot of it to 'play well'. Skilled Play is just the term we have for a particular style of gaming, usually using the D&D rules set or a clone thereof. It's got no monopoly on skill generally, that's just silly.
 

Classic skilled play (B/X say, as a baseline) also has a significant element of resource management, which 5E does not. That's not good or bad, its just a thing. 5E can do some parts of classic skilled play, sort of. The issue is that the system itself pushes back against the play style. 5E characters have an enormous number of widgets and rules compared to B/X characters, and those obviate SP to a certain extent, at least insofar as they effect SP elements. Even the HP levels and healing in 5E push back against SP because there's rarely the kind of HP scarcity that would, for example, mitigate for retreat, at least in some groups. Another element that pushes back is the CR system. 'Balanced encounters' don't really emphasize honest risk appraisal, not does it foster creative encounter problem solving. That certainly isn't to say that you can't have those things in 5E, just that the system isn't helping.

None of the above is to suggest that 5E is worse, or bad, I quite enjoy it, but I wouldn't try to shoehorn a serious SP style campaign into it. If I want that I'll run B/X or one of the OSR systems that are actually build with SP in mind. If I'm going to play 5E I want to lean into its strengths, not paper over its cracks.
It is definitely worse. I'm trying to DM a serious Storm King's Campaign and altough I'm vehemently against unnecessary homebrew, I'm starting to think I should have eliminated things like Light/Dancing Lights cantrips, Artificer's ability to create Bags of Holding at-will and other nonsense abilities that invalidates the resource management aspect of the game.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
It is definitely worse. I'm trying to DM a serious Storm King's Campaign and altough I'm vehemently against unnecessary homebrew, I'm starting to think I should have eliminated things like Light/Dancing Lights cantrips, Artificer's ability to create Bags of Holding at-will and other nonsense abilities that invalidates the resource management aspect of the game.
This is why I don't even try. Winnowing out all the problem elements is more work than my laziness will permit.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
The view I'm drawn to is
  • partly to acknowledge @FrogReaver's point that there was something labelled "skilled play" that makes most sense within its original context;
  • partly to acknowledge that for many posters a modern take on "skilled play" results in thinking about skilled play (no quotes), and of course what that is varies by context;
  • and partly to suggest based on my own reading and intuitions, that a take on "skilled play" (modern and original) that may span contexts is to use it as a label for play that while emphasising skill inclusively, is also interested in skill outside the game system.
So what I mean by that last - skill outside the game system - is that a group who aims to perform "skilled play" (quotes) is going to desire challenges that can't be solved (or can't be solved most efficiently and powerfully) using only the game mechanics.

A simple and incomplete example might be that they would look for players to tell them something about how they approach "persuading the Queen by rolling against Charisma (Persuasion)" that makes them believe she will set aside her trait of "will not listen to persuasive words." The group can't just make the check, they must describe an approach to overcoming an obstacle that has no representation in the game mechanics.

Were this how we saw "skilled play" then for me it would be a useful label, disambiguated from simply skilled play (no quotes). It would refer to a kind of play that I enjoy. More importantly, I can derive consequences from it, such as
  • rules that frame process, i.e. that bracket "skilled play" and can translate it into ongoing consequences (time taken, resources used) might be valuable
  • the 5e skills system is perfectly capable of responding to "skilled play" moves, such as in my example allowing the check at all, allowing help with the check, apply advantage or disadvantage, raising or lowering the stakes (promises made, resources consumed, leverage spent), deciding how much time it takes, and so on
  • referring to my OP, for me it makes a neat exit from tension with CRPG because for sure CRPG cannot resolve things outside of the programmed game mechanics... albeit those are becoming increasingly extensive and are opening up (and will continue to open up) space for ingenuity and some classes of skill
If modern "skilled play" (quotes) is simply skilled play (no quotes) then I do not feel a need for the label: I would find it more straightforward to simply say our context and discuss what we mean by skill.
I think talking about what system requirements we have for SP is the one of the few times in recent memory that it really makes sense to talk about SP. Essentially we are asking what system elements are needed to allow SP to actually be skilled play. And I think you are right that CRPGs at the current time just don’t have the capability to allow such play / though it may be more because such functionality hasn’t been developed than that they are incapable of doing so.
 

pemerton

Legend
IMO the crux of understanding skilled play in OSR terms is understanding how early D&D play worked and then understanding the techniques players could use to more efficiently navigate the obstacles. But all that ultimately entails is applying the regular term 'skilled play' to an early D&D or OSR game.
To add to this:

The key technique in classic D&D play is the players engaging with the fiction, especially the immediate geography and architecture, and having the GM extrapolate from that engagement.

This is where mechanics then come into play. If the engagement with the fiction is I poke it with a 10' pole, normally no mechanical mediation is required - the GM just extrapolates and described what happens next. If the engagement is I push the statue over, then it is very common for a mechanic (say, a bend bars roll if it's a big statute) to be invoked, and the result of that check will determine how the GM extrapolates. In some cases, like I force open the stuck door or I pick the lock, mechanical intermediation is almost mandatory.

As I and some others posted in another thread, there is no deep logic to the way classic D&D sometimes does and sometimes doesn't require mechanical mediation between player engagement and GM extrapolation. It reflects the way that Gygax et al did it, and not much more than that. There's no deeper system logic (cf, say, the structure for skill challenges in 4e D&D). And it's very easy to come up with player engagements with the fiction where it's completely unclear whether mechanical mediation is a necessary precursor to GM extrapolation. For instance (and coming out of another recent thread), suppose a player wants his/her PC to shoot a flaming arrow at a static, taut rope. Does the player just declare and the the GM extrapolate what happens when the arrow hits the rope? Or is some sort of to hit check required? Is this in the same territory as poking things with poles? Or in the same territory as forcing open locked doors? You can read and reread Gygax's rulebooks from cover to cover, but they won't give you an answer, and they won't even give you a principle out of which you can come up with an answer. You'll just have to make a decision of your own.

What will be fundamental, though, is that the purpose of any mechanical mediation that is called for will simply be to establish whether or not the PC's engagement with the fiction actually took place as the player hoped (did I knock the statue over? did I burst the door open? did I pick the lock? did I hit the rope with my flaming arrow?) Determining what follows from that engagement with the fiction is not a mechanical process at all in this sort of play. The GM decides, by extrapolation.

This is also the great limit on this sort of play. Because I think it's obvious that with a certain degree of complexity the idea that the GM is extrapolating rather than just making stuff up becomes hard to sustain. My own view is that some wilderness adventures, and basically all urban adventuring, fall on the unhappy side of this line. I regard White Plume Mountain, Tomb of Horror and Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan as exemplars of what the happy side of the line looks like.
 

pemerton

Legend
I think you're being nitpicky here... Conan has never swam for hours without breathing... he can drown. He has also fought demons and monsters that the average man would have no chance against. And yes he used a magic sword... isn't this the same as in D&D?
We don't know how long he can hold his breath. Nor do we know exactly how quickly he can scale Mt Everest. But I'm very confident the answers are longer and shorter, respectively, than just about any other character in the Hyborean Age. Which is why I find the idea of level-independent measures of grit, determination and survival quite counterintuitive.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
I mean D&D is not exactly well suited for Conan. I mean Conan goes on many adventures, but it is still pretty much the same Conan throughout. There's no zero to hero journey or escalation of stakes. He does not start out threatened by goblins and eventually treat dragons like routine pests. Rather when dealing with the supernatural it is almost always cunning and grit that wins the day rather than swording everything to death as we are want to do in D&D.
 


Doug McCrae

Legend
We don't know how long he can hold his breath. Nor do we know exactly how quickly he can scale Mt Everest. But I'm very confident the answers are longer and shorter, respectively, than just about any other character in the Hyborean Age. Which is why I find the idea of level-independent measures of grit, determination and survival quite counterintuitive.
I agree and I'd add that in at least one respect Conan is superhuman -- his ability to find his way in complete darkness. Red Nails:

The darkness was absolute... Again Valeria felt Conan’s hand bearing her up and sweeping her along as they raced after their guide. Conan could see in the dark no better than she, but he possessed a sort of instinct that made his course unerring. Without his support and guidance she would have fallen or stumbled against the wall.​
 

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