D&D 5E Is 5e's Success Actually Bad for Other Games?

Mercurius

Legend
It is worth noting that Call of Cthulu is one of the most successful RPGs on the market right now, and is less niche than just about any non-D&D RPG.
Yes, but compared to D&D it is niche - and its subject matter is very tightly thematically focused. I think it is, fittingly enough, a "cult classic" - and probably the most successful one in RPG history.

As an aside, any Brits want to weigh in on the relative popularity of Warhammer rpgs and D&D?
 

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Blue Orange

Gone to Texas
It is worth noting that Call of Cthulu is one of the most successful RPGs on the market right now, and is less niche than just about any non-D&D RPG.

I'd say it's pretty niche: it's a subgenre (cosmic) of a genre (horror). Sandy Petersen and Lynn Willis just happened to make a fun game that inverted a lot of the tropes of D&D of that era and that influenced a lot of other works due to the rise of geek culture in the 90s. (I mean, True Detective? You think Sam Spade or Hercule Poirot would have run into Nyarlathotep? Yes, I read Shadows over Baker Street and A Study in Emerald.)

I'd guess you probably have some knock-on effect where people enjoying 5e but looking for something else try different RPGs. It's probably worse for rival fantasy RPGs.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Obviously wrong about bards. Transparently correct on rising tide.

Hey!

I do not like your college, bard
I do not like you playing guitar
I do not like you in chainmail
I do not like you drunk on ale
I do not like your sorry life
I hope you do not take a wife
I hope you don't decide to breed
Cause that's one thing I do not need

I think that you're a total fool
I hate you and your fancy school
You're wrong about the fighting class
I know we'll kick your Bardic ass
I do not like you in this game of ours
I'd rather you play on planet Mars
And die from lack of oxygen
Than have you breathe the air of other men

Hey!
 

Want players for a 5e or pathfinder game? You practically just have to throw a rock in any direction and you'll attract enough players for a game.

Want a different game (savage worlds, dark heresy, Palladium, whatever)? No one seems to want to even give them a shot. And he's tried.
Sure, but how easy was it pre-5e.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I'd say it's pretty niche: it's a subgenre (cosmic) of a genre (horror). Sandy Petersen and Lynn Willis just happened to make a fun game that inverted a lot of the tropes of D&D of that era and that influenced a lot of other works due to the rise of geek culture in the 90s. (I mean, True Detective? You think Sam Spade or Hercule Poirot would have run into Nyarlathotep? Yes, I read Shadows over Baker Street and A Study in Emerald.)

I'd guess you probably have some knock-on effect where people enjoying 5e but looking for something else try different RPGs. It's probably worse for rival fantasy RPGs.
I mean, my point is that it is selling more books and has more players than any game that isn't D&D or Pathfinder. Call of Ctbulu actually got pretty big the past couple years.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Sure, but how easy was it pre-5e.

That certainly is the question.

I suspect D&D recruitment was ALWAYS easier than other games, due to its much higher penetration into cultural relevance.

So if you accept this, 5e isn't having any worse an effect. AND as more people try 5e there is MORE potential for people to move on to other games from there.

So another question is, is this a thing (more people moving from 5e to other games) and if so has the effect been at all measured? Are "other" games experiencing a measurable boom thanks to the clear 5e boom?
 

darjr

I crit!
I dunno, the more I study about the history of the formation of the game, the more tenuous the circumstances are: without the Napaleonic flop that Arnesons group had tries, Arneaon wouldn't have done the proto-D&D, and if Gygax wasn't singlehandedly pushing Medieval wargsmming so hard he might not have gotten in touch with Arneaon, or if Arneson hadn't brought Gygax on board it's unthinkable that he would have developed a final product...and if D&D wasn't there, there ry weren't any parallels running. Pop culture from the 70's would be basically unrecognizable.
There were other unrelated “role playing” games. From the games the DOD ran that were more like practicing “what if” scenarios to the rpg that the D&D historian uncovered to mock trials and the improvisational theatre movement, especially the private ones not meant for an audience but more like practice, called Thestre Games.

I, however, have no idea if it would have lead to anything like D&D or if it would have taken a hundred years more.
 

darjr

I crit!
I mean, my point is that it is selling more books and has more players than any game that isn't D&D or Pathfinder. Call of Ctbulu actually got pretty big the past couple years.
Yea, and I think COC got awfully close to surpassing Pathfinder for second place.

(close being hard to pin down and having all other RPGs clustered together down there after 2nd place)
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
There were other unrelated “role playing” games. From the games the DOD ran that were more like practicing “what if” scenarios to the rpg that the D&D historian uncovered to mock trials and the improvisational theatre movement, especially the private ones not meant for an audience but more like practice, called Thestre Games.

I, however, have no idea if it would have lead to anything like D&D or if it would have taken a hundred years more.
I remember reading an old interview with Marc W. Miller of Traveller fame about how he and his circle received D&D, coming from a military background with political science and psychology education: he compared D&D as sort of the "digital" revolution of "analog" replaying like you mention. It's really a stunning and remarkable leap, and I simultaneously don't know why it wasn't made earlier and wonder how long it may have taken to happen if those particular pieces didn't come together in the 70's.

Still, in the present timeline, the OP is a bit of an odd question, like "would I be making more money today if my parents had never met?"
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
Huh, didn't know that.

Still, I think that the origins of chainmail (coming out of medieval wargaming) would have eventually been developed by someone else, and that would have eventually led to D&D. Heck, it may even first happen in video games and move over to tables later. I don't know, but I'm skeptical that if Gygax was never born a different TTRPG would never emerge.

Now, emerge to prominence? Less certain about that.
We have an American Flag on the Moon because the Dukes of Burgundy came up with the idea of Credit.

The Dukes of Burgundy came up with the idea of Credit in the "I have a line of 'Free Money' based on what you anticipate I'm worth that I can spend now and pay you back at a later date.". This allowed them to put more soldiers on the field of battle with better equipment, particularly cavalry and armor. As a response, the Swiss created the Pike Square formation. The Pike Square didn't require heavily trained or armored troops to perform. You just get a large number of peasants together, put them in a square, put the Pikes outward, and suddenly you've got a box that cavalry can't easily overcome.

Hundreds of years later, the Pike Square is used to great effect by French Revolutionaries in France, that and the loss of most of the military leaders to the guillotine (along with all the other leaders) leads Napoleon to decide to have MASSIVE armies that can protect his cannons with their feeble meatsack bodies! Allowing his bombards to destroy fortifications and troops while keeping his cannons safe from cavalry. But this caused Supply Chain problems.

It's expensive and dangerous to feed an army. So Napoleon entreated his soldiers families to send them food on the battlefield. The common response to this, for a bunch of -very- French Parisians, was to bottle food in empty wine or champagne bottles, put the cork in, and send it out. This worked pretty well, but sometimes the food would be spoiled by the time it got there while tinned food didn't. The French chalked it up to "Bad Air" from the swamps around Paris and mostly focused on getting tinned food to their soldiers.

The "Bad Air" theory carried on. And when Malaria was a problem it was theorized that the "Bad Air" of places where Malaria occurred was the -real- problem. So a doctor in India asked one of his friends to send him "Good Air" to use from Switzerland, where Malaria didn't occur. By pressurizing air in a metal container the air got colder, which lead to the invention of Air Conditioning. Which, while not a cure for malaria, helped to keep people alive as they fought off the infection so it was "Good Enough".

In the late 1800s a scientist wanted to try and mess around with Air Pressure because air conditioning was a thing and compressing air made it turn cold. So he created a way to put a Vacuum between two pieces of metal to see if the heat and cold would transfer across that empty space. It did not. And thus he invented the Thermos.

Then a couple of geniuses realized that putting a Thermos full of Liquid or Solid Fuel in their rocket allowed the fuel behind the vacuum to remain relatively cold while the fuel being burned off was incredibly hot and that's why the Saturn V rocket allowed a man to reach the Moon.

History is so naughty word weird, man... It's -so- weird...
 
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