D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

[Mort]

Maybe in a whiteroom with little resemblance to normal play, but a claim like that requires more details to back it up.

"exponentially" may be a bit of hyperbole, but it is a significant impact - and it's not white room.

We have a sorcerer in our 8th level group. His go-to is to cast a twinned haste on the two paladins in the group and then support with non consentration spells. It's a massive increase over unhasted Martials. And that's just one example.

 

[Mort]

The notion that martials aren't as viable as casters is nonsense, as my session today proved it. Our last session ended after 3 combats of the current day, and this session we had 6 more for a total of 9. We had no opportunity to short rest at all, as we were in the middle of a giant battle. Today, 4 of the battles occurred within only a few rounds of each other (with potential for overlap), so we didn't even to get much outside of combat healing from potions and the like. All the casters except me (nature cleric) were drained by the end of the 3rd fight today (6th fight overall, and we're 15th level). I wasn't because my character is focused on Spiritual Guardians, which I was able to keep up for all 4 fights. Except for 1 Spiritual Weapon, the only other spells I cast were healing, Shillelagh, and 1 Misty Step.

The point being that the Barbarian was crushing it all day long. She held the front lines, often facing the baddest enemy on the field by herself, every single fight. The paladin and hexblade were helpful for a while, but they fell off the curve after the 2nd fight today (5th overall). She dealt and took ridiculous amounts of damage, and took only the Mass Cure Wounds spells before the final combat (I gave her a level 3 cure wounds to keep her from dropping, which would lose her last rage). In the final 3 fights today, there's no question she was the MVP, seconded by me (because of my healing).

This certainly maps with my experience.

Barbarians are beasts in combat and a series of combats strung together are ideal for a barbarian who's rage can carry over, or who can rage again if necessary.

Unlike for a paladin or hex blade who are likely to run out of resources (as happened here). Plus healing on a barbarian is very efficient thanks to rage.

 

[Charlaquin]

In my opinion, there are basically two options: either every class should be viable in every pillar, but contribute to it in different ways, or every class should specialize in a pillar and be weaker in others. The direction 5e seems to want to go in is the latter, and that’s a valid choice, but in that case non-casters should have more tools to contribute outside of combat in different ways than the casters do.

 

[Cadence]

Martials... but not by much.

 

[Steampunkette]

 

[Steampunkette]

More seriously: I love Cantrips. I think Cantrips should be the baseline competence of all Spellcasters in Combat. With special class-specific riders for them, rather than a bunch of spell slots used on Fireballs and stuff.

Like Warlocks getting harder-hitting attack cantrips to play up their striker role. Wizards getting a wider variety of combat-related cantrips that do more than -just- some damage. And Sorcerers flinging cantrips that they get to customize with Spell Points to make them do different aspects of combat functions to different degrees.

I think Clerics should get more Defensive Cantrips like protective wards that reduce incoming damage to nearby allies for a turn. While Druids should get cantrips that cause the environment to change.

Maybe split cantrips into different "Buckets" of Offense, Defense, Control, and Utility, and have every spellcaster get a specified number of each with a few free "Floating" Cantrips. And then SAVAGELY curtail the availability of "Real" spell slots on both a long rest and short rest basis.

Make Magic for spellcasters something they often have at their fingertips at a level of impact similar to a martial character's power... but also able to drastically alter that a few times.

Oh. And more Ritual Casting. Pretty much every non-combat spell should just be a Ritual that someone can spend cash and downtime on scribing it into their spellbook rather than trying to balance their spell slot use between combat-casting and out of combat utility. Any spell with a casting time higher than 1 round is already practically a Ritual Spell, anyhow, so just get it over with.

Resurrection? No one has time to memorize that crap and it takes an hour to cast anyhow. Just slap the Ritual tag on it and now the Cleric doesn't need to save a level 7 Spell Slot but still needs expensive material components.

 

[Mort]

More seriously: I love Cantrips. I think Cantrips should be the baseline competence of all Spellcasters in Combat. With special class-specific riders for them, rather than a bunch of spell slots used on Fireballs and stuff.

Like Warlocks getting harder-hitting attack cantrips to play up their striker role. Wizards getting a wider variety of combat-related cantrips that do more than -just- some damage. And Sorcerers flinging cantrips that they get to customize with Spell Points to make them do different aspects of combat functions to different degrees.

I think Clerics should get more Defensive Cantrips like protective wards that reduce incoming damage to nearby allies for a turn. While Druids should get cantrips that cause the environment to change.

Maybe split cantrips into different "Buckets" of Offense, Defense, Control, and Utility, and have every spellcaster get a specified number of each with a few free "Floating" Cantrips. And then SAVAGELY curtail the availability of "Real" spell slots on both a long rest and short rest basis.

Make Magic for spellcasters something they often have at their fingertips at a level of impact similar to a martial character's power... but also able to drastically alter that a few times.

Oh. And more Ritual Casting. Pretty much every non-combat spell should just be a Ritual that someone can spend cash and downtime on scribing it into their spellbook rather than trying to balance their spell slot use between combat-casting and out of combat utility. Any spell with a casting time higher than 1 round is already practically a Ritual Spell, anyhow, so just get it over with.

Resurrection? No one has time to memorize that crap and it takes an hour to cast anyhow. Just slap the Ritual tag on it and now the Cleric doesn't need to save a level 7 Spell Slot but still needs expensive material components.

But then you have casters stepping on other toes again as was a big problem in 3e.

Knock, for example, if it can be cast as a ritual (so little to no resource cost) infringes the rogues territory big time. Granted, 5e nerfed knock in other ways - but still.

Plenty of other examples of where this would be a dangerous move - unless you want casters to dominate, then it will work great.

Edit: unless you take into account the ritual caster feat. With this upgrade it goes from an OK feat to amazing. You could actually sideline traditional caster s with this upgrade. That's actually worth a thought for the right campaign.

 

[grimslade]

More seriously: I love Cantrips. I think Cantrips should be the baseline competence of all Spellcasters in Combat. With special class-specific riders for them, rather than a bunch of spell slots used on Fireballs and stuff.

Like Warlocks getting harder-hitting attack cantrips to play up their striker role. Wizards getting a wider variety of combat-related cantrips that do more than -just- some damage. And Sorcerers flinging cantrips that they get to customize with Spell Points to make them do different aspects of combat functions to different degrees.

I think Clerics should get more Defensive Cantrips like protective wards that reduce incoming damage to nearby allies for a turn. While Druids should get cantrips that cause the environment to change.

Maybe split cantrips into different "Buckets" of Offense, Defense, Control, and Utility, and have every spellcaster get a specified number of each with a few free "Floating" Cantrips. And then SAVAGELY curtail the availability of "Real" spell slots on both a long rest and short rest basis.

Make Magic for spellcasters something they often have at their fingertips at a level of impact similar to a martial character's power... but also able to drastically alter that a few times.

Oh. And more Ritual Casting. Pretty much every non-combat spell should just be a Ritual that someone can spend cash and downtime on scribing it into their spellbook rather than trying to balance their spell slot use between combat-casting and out of combat utility. Any spell with a casting time higher than 1 round is already practically a Ritual Spell, anyhow, so just get it over with.

Resurrection? No one has time to memorize that crap and it takes an hour to cast anyhow. Just slap the Ritual tag on it and now the Cleric doesn't need to save a level 7 Spell Slot but still needs expensive material components.

Amen Sister! Preach.

 

[grimslade]

But then you have casters stepping on other toes again as was a big problem in 3e.

Knock, for example, if it can be cast as a ritual (so little to no resource cost) infringes the rogues territory big time. Granted, 5e nerfed knock in other ways - but still.

Plenty of other examples of where this would be a dangerous move - unless you want casters to dominate, then it will work great.

Edit: unless you take into account the ritual caster feat. With this upgrade it goes from an OK feat to amazing. You could actually sideline traditional caster s with this upgrade. That's actually worth a thought for the right campaign.

Yes! Open rituals for all characters. Focus magical combatants to be magical combatants, not Master of All Trades. Each pillar of the game should be separated and balanced separately from the others. Exploration should be balanced with exploration, social with social, and combat with combat. The pillars are not equal in D&D, so why do we balance between them?

 

[Zardnaar]

I am leaning on #2 as well.

With most campaign apparently stopping around level 10 or so, the remnant of Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizards don't really matter since most party will never pass the quadratic threshold. Many "gamechanging" spells are in the 7th-to-9th level range and shouldn't be taken into account. I feel that 5E reached a good balance to make casters contribute effectively at <10th level, not overshadowing martial characters but still having something magical to do in a fights.

I don't think this is a new thing.

When explaining why I thought PF defeated 4E I pointed this out.

Followed by most players are also likely casuals followed by they don't own the required books or knowledge to really break the game.

It even if they do they don't want to wreck the game.

This leaves those players who will do such things but suspect they're a small minority.