D&D 5E Is 5e's Success Actually Bad for Other Games?

Most players I've met got into rpgs because they wanted to play heroic fantasy characters in a pseudo-medieval world that never was. D&D does that very well. They are satisfied with that. It makes sense they want to play the current edition.

Over the last 41 years it has always been very difficult to play any other rpg for more than a few sessions.

This is not a 5e thing.

Does it hurt other games? Considering the number of published non-d&d rpgs and KS campaigns the answer is no. You just need to find the right group of players who don't want to play D&D. With FB Groups and VTT that is very easy now.
 

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I wouldn’t go that far. More like he really likes 4e and it’s design.
Yeah, he comes at his comments purely from a designer point of view, rather than a regular player. As a regular player and DM he enjoys running 5E fine and his company is producing content for 5E, which he is happy about. But when he puts on his designer hat, he talks about what 5E is missing now that 4E used to have.

For instance... when it comes to combat, the "tactical" aspects of monster design he feels is missing because very little in most monster's stat blocks can be used "tactically" (and instead had what he called "big bags of hit points".) Which isn't really new... I mean people this entire time have been making the same point.

The example he gave in his very last stream when he went deeper into it was the Giants. He said designing an encounter using 5E giants wasn't interesting, because the only things they had in their statblock were a melee and a ranged attack, and a few had some typical spells. That's it. Unlike say in 4E, there were no abilities that any giant had to move enemies around the battlefield, slow enemies down, cause ongoing damage, mark enemies, attack every enemy around the giant at once, etc. Pretty much all the hallmarks of 4E miniatures combat design the giants had in some form or fashion. So as a tactical miniatures combat game... creating encounters using 4E was more interesting, and he while playing it had more decisions on how it played-- using strictly the statblocks provided by the game's design.

Now that being said... again, this is him wearing a designer hat. Because many of us as players of the game would probably suggest you can do a lot of this in 5E using improvised actions, or just making comments during combat saying things like "If I shove this goblin, can I push him so hard he goes tumbling into the firepit?" And the DM might think about it for a second, make a Rule of Cool in the spur of the moment, and then go "Sure! Try it!" And then the results would play out. And in fact, as a 5E DM, this is pretty much how Colville runs the game as well. But none of that stuff is intrinsic in the design of specific aspects of the game (or at least placed in obvious position). I mean, anyone can try to shove someone back 5 feet... but that's not emblazoned on anyone's character sheet as a standard tactic you can apply-- you have to remember you can replace one of your attacks with a Shove. Whereas in 4E there will be many PC options where 'Push 1 Square' is right front and center as an At-Will maneuver. And that's just one of the numerous other "powers" that PCs and monsters will have written down in their character sheets and statblocks for everyone to see and remember and use right off the bat.

So from a design point-of-view, for a player coming in with no expectations of how D&D plays or is meant to run or what can be done... I understand where Matt's coming from. You look at a Fire Giant in 5E, the giant can swing a greatsword (maybe twice), and throw a rock-- both for just damage. Whereas the 4E Fire Giant can swing a greatsword that marks the target and pushes them 2 squares away, can hurl lava which can immobilize the target and cause it to fall from the sky if the target is flying, and can send out a wave of heat to every target around them out to 5 squares that will burn then and catch them on fire causing them to keep burning every round until they save. You look at those two statblocks, and yeah, the 4E version has more tactical options built into the statblock itself. The 5E fire giant might be able to do things along those lines using a number of the other options and rules found all across various parts of the game (shoving, grappling, disarming, spells that mimic the abilities of the 4E giant)... but the DM has to go out of their way to find, attach and build those things into the giant statlock, rather than having them already written in place.

But we who are players of D&D and who have had years of experience knowing we can just make up and improvise all manner of goofy crap during a fight... can create an experience like you might find in 4E combat, without actually needing it written down. And in fact, oftentimes more outrageous stuff can happen, because we aren't beholden to the three or four specific "tactical" actions on the statblock. And this is where I think many people bounce off of 4E... because as has been said many times before, if you write down several specific things a character or monster can do... you don't tend to look outside of it for other things to do. So the 4E monster ends up feeling like it has "less" options because we stick only with the several options written in the stablock and don't improvise more than that. In 5E we HAVE to improvise more stuff and thus our options become much wider.

But none of that is built into the design. It's all imagination and improvisation-- something from a designer's POV is way too esoteric to make "rules" for that you can put in a D&D book for all skill level of player to figure out and play out of the gate.
 
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The example he gave in his very last stream when he went deeper into it was the Giants. He said designing an encounter using 5E giants wasn't interesting, because the only things they had in their statblock were a melee and a ranged attack, and a few had some typical spells. That's it. Unlike say in 4E, there were no abilities that any giant had to move enemies around the battlefield, slow enemies down, cause ongoing damage, mark enemies, attack every enemy around the giant at once, etc. Pretty much all the hallmarks of 4E miniatures combat design the giants had in some form or fashion. So as a tactical miniatures combat game... creating encounters using 4E was more interesting, and he while playing it had more decisions on how it played-- using strictly the statblocks provided by the game's design.

See, that's the kind of thing that makes me bounce off the notion of even trying 4th edition. I love the idea of a more tactically interesting, grid-based, combat-focused experience… but then everything I learn about the system itself speaks to a level of needless complexity that would make my head swim.

True story, a few months back I was literally on my way to a local used bookstore to look for some 4e books to maybe give the system a try, and I listened to this YouTube video on the way there—



—and noped out again a few blocks away from the bookstore.
 
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I doubt it. While newer players likely will gravitate to a game like 5e initially, based on what I've seen 5e has drawn in a significant number of players.

Over time, some of those players will invariably find that their tastes differ from 5e and are better served by some other game. A game pulling in more people to TTRPGs is good for all the games on the hobby, at least in the long term.

YMMV
This, or they will create a 200 page binder with bogus houserules.
 

The question was, “Does 5e do tactical combat” and his answer was, after pausing and thinking, “no”. But, I could have missed some nuance in the exchange, sure. He chats tend to go by fast. And, really, he was just talking, shooting the shinola, ya know?
I mean.... It doesn't. If you have a tactical combat in 5E, it's you who did it and not the game.

There's no way to not have a tactical combat in 4E -- if you just grab the game and follow the rules you'll have a tactical combat with synergies and naughty word.

To achieve anything more than "I HIT HIM WITH MY SWORD! Yes, again" in 5E you actually have to work.
 

See, that's the kind of thing that makes me bounce off the notion of even trying 4th edition. I love the idea of a more tactical, grid-based, combat-focused experience… but then everything about the system itself speaks to a level of needless complexity that would make my head swim.
Well, I guess it comes down to what you would consider "needless".

I mean, if you want a tactical miniatures combat-focused experience... your first step would be to look at Warhammer (Fantasy or 40K). And that game is definitely complex. But is it "needlessly" complex? I'm pretty sure the people who play it would say 'No'. The complexity of those games are why they are the games they are. Everybody else might say "Absolutely!", but for the Warhammer players, it's just as complex as it needs to be to produce the experience they want.

By the same token, is 4E combat complex? I'm pretty sure the people who play it would also say 'No'. Heck... when it first came out back in '08 I ran a 4E campaign for 8 people, several of whom had never played RPGs at all before, and all of them picked it pretty quickly. Because while there are several different options on every character sheet and statblock for each player and the DM to choose from... almost always there's one specific choice that makes sense at the time their turn comes up. If you are one-on-one against an enemy, you'd use your main single-target attack. If there were several enemies in a bunch at range, you'd use your applicable AoE attack. If the BBEG was moving towards the squishy wizard, you'd use your attack that would draw its focus to you instead.

Therefore, I'd call these features "usefully" complex, and wouldn't say 4E was "needless". "Needless" to me would be if you have three valid options for every situation, and you really had to spend a lot of time trying to divine which one was ultimately "right" to use in that specific situation. But heck... I'm pretty sure there would be other players who would say you didn't have "three options for the same situation", you had "one option for each of three different situations" because of what they considered to be "complex".

4E is a really fun game for a very specific reason. But if you don't happen to find that reason compelling, then it's not necessary for you to play it. No harm... no foul.
 

I mean, if you want a tactical miniatures combat-focused experience... your first step would be to look at Warhammer (Fantasy or 40K). And that game is definitely complex. But is it "needlessly" complex? I'm pretty sure the people who play it would say 'No'. The complexity of those games are why they are the games they are. Everybody else might say "Absolutely!", but for the Warhammer players, it's just as complex as it needs to be to produce the experience they wanty.
As someone who've been playing Wh40k for damn too long, yes, it is needlessly complex.

Things are better now, but it's still a pretty bad wargame. The only reason I play it, because it's hard to find people to play Flames of War with.

Hm... Wh40k is actually a pretty good analogy for D&D. Wh40k is the wargame, and the vast majority of people just never leave, despite GW being greedy bastards and game being very meh.
 

I mean.... It doesn't. If you have a tactical combat in 5E, it's you who did it and not the game.

There's no way to not have a tactical combat in 4E -- if you just grab the game and follow the rules you'll have a tactical combat with synergies and naughty word.

To achieve anything more than "I HIT HIM WITH MY SWORD! Yes, again" in 5E you actually have to work.
Baloney. I have tactical combats all the time. If you don’t I suggest your not using enough of the rules, which I think is a proper gripe of 5e. There isn’t enough exposition on HOW to use the rules to get that tactical play.

The first hint is that it’s not all in the monster stat block. Lots of 4e folks seem to make this mistake.

However if you say it isn’t AS tactical or doesn’t go into as much tactical detail as you’d like and 4e dose, yea. I dig that.
 

Yeah, he comes at his comments purely from a designer point of view, rather than a regular player. As a regular player and DM he enjoys running 5E fine and his company is producing content for 5E, which he is happy about. But when he puts on his designer hat, he talks about what 5E is missing now that 4E used to have.
This is a key component. For example, a lot of his discussion discusses archaisms of D&D from 1974 that likely would not be part of a modern game if it was created from scratch today (e.g., vestigial attributes vs. used modifiers, spell level vs. character level, etc.). Obviously 4e has a lot of these things too, but I suspect that he at least feels that 4e represents a more forward evolution of D&D's game design.

Well, I guess it comes down to what you would consider "needless".

I mean, if you want a tactical miniatures combat-focused experience... your first step would be to look at Warhammer (Fantasy or 40K). And that game is definitely complex. But is it "needlessly" complex? I'm pretty sure the people who play it would say 'No'. The complexity of those games are why they are the games they are.

By the same token, is 4E combat complex? I'm pretty sure the people who play it would also say 'No'. Heck... when it first came out back in '08 I ran a 4E campaign for 8 people, several of whom had never played RPGs at all before, and all of them picked it pretty quickly. Because while there are several different options on every character sheet and statblock for each player and the DM to choose from... almost always there's one specific choice that makes sense at the time their turn comes up. If you are one-on-one against an enemy, you'd use your main single-target attack. If there were several enemies in a bunch at range, you'd use your applicable AoE attack. If the BBEG was moving towards the squishy wizard, you'd use your attack that would draw its focus to you instead.

Therefore, I'd call these features "usefully" complex, and wouldn't say 4E was "needlessly". "Needless" to me would be if you have three valid options for every situation, and you really had to spend a lot of time trying to divine which one was ultimately "right" to use in that specific situation. But heck... I'm pretty sure there would be other players who would say you didn't have "three options for the same situation", you had "one option for each of three different situations" because of what they considered to be "complex".

4E is a really fun game for a very specific reason. But if you don't happen to find that reason compelling, then it's not necessary for you to play it. No harm... no foul.
I've been watching the stream of his 4e game. It starts out cumbersome enough, but that is mostly due to problems with Matt and his players learning Fantasy Grounds. Combat goes by much quicker by the time of their 3rd and 4th stream.

Baloney. I have tactical combats all the time. If you don’t I suggest your not using enough of the rules, which I think is a proper gripe of 5e. There isn’t enough exposition on HOW to use the rules to get that tactical play.

The first hint is that it’s not all in the monster stat block. Lots of 4e folks seem to make this mistake.

However if you say it isn’t AS tactical or doesn’t go into as much tactical detail as you’d like and 4e dose, yea. I dig that.
All D&D is fairly tactical by virtue of fundamentally being the evolution of a tactical skirmish combat game.
 

This, or they will create a 200 page binder with bogus houserules.
I think that there's nothing wrong with making the game your own, rather than choosing a different game. The former gives you significant control over customizing the experience exactly to your preferences, while the latter is a convenient prepackaged experience that can save you the effort of DIY (but may not tick every box on your list). Both are perfectly valid options.
 

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