D&D 5E Is 5e's Success Actually Bad for Other Games?

[doctorbadwolf]

This has no bearing on whether the current edition of D&D is dominating the market to the point of actively stifling its competitors or not.

No.

Yes. lol the idea that other games have nothing to learn from the most successful iteration of any TTRPG in the 50 year history of the hobby is patently absurd.

As is the premise of this thread, frankly. Before 5e’s success, the hobby was smaller. It has grown dramatically. Pretending there is no causal link because y’all don’t want there to be is just silly.

I think that would count. My own myopia leaves me knowing about D&D adjacent Kickstarters. What are some of the notable non D&D adjacent games that have had huge Kickstarters?

OK cool. But what about them says 5es success helped them? Do you think?

You’re serious? The TTRPG hobby is bigger than its ever been. More people are making a living in this space than ever in history. And the boom is distinct from the general tabletop game boom, which was in swing when 4e was still new.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Well it can lead to some disappointing behavior...

 

[Parmandur]

Well it can lead to some disappointing behavior...

Wow, yeah, that ThinkDM cat really didn't phrase that well. I guess he was trying to make a point about trying new things being good, but it does come off as a "Ya Basic" personal attack.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

That's one way to measure success but I don't know if it's the best one. John Wick released Orkworld back in 2000 as a standalone product with no intention of ever publishing another edition or any supplements. Was it successful? I thought it was a pretty decent game and I think Wick made a profit so I'd have to say yes. Is a game successful if it puts out a dozen supplements and the company goes bankrupt? I'd have to say no. But I'm measuring success a bit different from product output alone.

That is more a special case, if he said up front this is all that will be published. But that is very rare and nearly every other new system launched would have the expectation of selling enough to keep publishing more books for the game.

 

[Thomas Shey]

That's the nature of a small business, rather than something corporate. The smaller you are, the less you can afford to have a narrow focus. And if you're the only employee, then you've got to be a one-man-band, short of anything you can afford to contract out.

No offense, but this is like saying Kevin Crawford is a bad example of a successful small game designer because he's too good at what he does. I mean, sure, not everyone can be him. But that doesn't disqualify him, since the smaller your company is the more it arguably behooves you to be like him. Part of running a small gaming business is running a small business. If you just want to design a game, then (assuming success) you have a product, but not an actual business.

My point was that most small game company operators are nowhere near as good at keeping all those balls in the air as Crawford; you can't look at him much as an example because he's a relatively extreme outlier. He's not very representative of the general tendencies in that sphere (which are, even for talented people, to end up having unexpected things sink them like the Titanic. Its even worse with people new to it because some of the things that can catch you across the knees are so counterintuitive). Crawford is an example of a successful small game company runner, but that's like saying Usiah Bolt is a successful sprinter; he's so far off the typical it doesn't tell you much about what the typical is.

 

[Fanaelialae]

My point was that most small game company operators are nowhere near as good at keeping all those balls in the air as Crawford; you can't look at him much as an example because he's a relatively extreme outlier. He's not very representative of the general tendencies in that sphere (which are, even for talented people, to end up having unexpected things sink them like the Titanic. Its even worse with people new to it because some of the things that can catch you across the knees are so counterintuitive). Crawford is an example of a successful small game company runner, but that's like saying Usiah Bolt is a successful sprinter; he's so far off the typical it doesn't tell you much about what the typical is.

That has nothing to do with 5e though. Lots of small businesses fail, for a variety of reasons. Crawford, like many other small businesses, is an example of a successful small business.

I have a ton of respect for Kevin Crawford, but I think comparing him to Usain Bolt is absurd. Many of the world's most talented runners push themselves to the limit to match him and can't. I could train my whole life and never get close.

While Crawford is undoubtedly talented, I think that there are plenty of people in the world who could match his success, provided they were willing to put in the work. Inspiration yes, but even moreso perspiration.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That's great and all, but entirely too often there's a strain of discourse among the frustrated "polyamorous" that vocally dumps on the D&D-monogamous. It starts in a perfectly understandable and sympathetic place—"I wish I could find more players willing to try out Brand Y"—but all too often it ends up in a place that looks like this thread's title, only less question and more assertion—"the overwhelming popularity of D&D is bad for the hobby." Usually with the undercurrent of "D&D is eclipsing my favorite pet game of the month having its faddish fifteen minutes (probably Blades in the Dark at present), which would be huge if only it weren't for all these benighted D&D players who don't know any better."

This is often accompanied by frothing resentment at the galling notion of "hacking" D&D to run genres other than heroic high fantasy, quite in spite of the fact that d20 System and OSR games prove it's entirely viable. When you have so many of the hobby's elite "connoisseurs" loudly declaring that D&D is lowest-common-denominator drek and openly yucking the hobby's most popular yum, is it any wonder at all that D&D-fans who are aware of this can also be defensive about it?

I’ve seen the anti-D&D gatekeeping push a lot of people away from the hobby at large, over the last ten years.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Well it can lead to some disappointing behavior...

Oof. Yeah that original tweet is pretty poorly thought out, at best.

 

[Thomas Shey]

That has nothing to do with 5e though. Lots of small businesses fail, for a variety of reasons. Crawford, like many other small businesses, is an example of a successful small business.

I have a ton of respect for Kevin Crawford, but I think comparing him to Usain Bolt is absurd. Many of the world's most talented runners push themselves to the limit to match him and can't. I could train my whole life and never get close.

While Crawford is undoubtedly talented, I think that there are plenty of people in the world who could match his success, provided they were willing to put in the work. Inspiration yes, but even moreso perspiration.

I will simply note that evidence in the field does not support this. I'm not aware of a single other solitary game designer who produces material of the quality and at the rate Crawford does; virtually everyone else requires others to do their editing, their layout, manage their printing or otherwise handle parts of the job. I'm not entirely his market, but he appears to be virtually alone in covering all the ground he does by himself, keep it up, and not have a notable sag in quality. And I'm including some very well known and respected figures (including by me) in the field in this.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I will simply note that evidence in the field does not support this. I'm not aware of a single other solitary game designer who produces material of the quality and at the rate Crawford does; virtually everyone else requires others to do their editing, their layout, manage their printing or otherwise handle parts of the job. I'm not entirely his market, but he appears to be virtually alone in covering all the ground he does by himself, keep it up, and not have a notable sag in quality. And I'm including some very well known and respected figures (including by me) in the field in this.

RPGs are a very small, niche market. If we broaden our perception to encompass all small business owners, then there are certainly those who match his hardworking entrepreneurialism and success. There are some fairly successful self-published authors out there, just as an example that isn't too far removed from what he is doing. Certainly there are others in different fields as well.