D&D 5E Is 5e's Success Actually Bad for Other Games?

[Thomas Shey]

RPGs are a very small, niche market. If we broaden our perception to encompass all small business owners, then there are certainly those who match his hardworking entrepreneurialism and success. There are some fairly successful self-published authors out there, just as an example that isn't too far removed from what he is doing. Certainly there are others in different fields as well.

My initial response to this was overly snarky, so I'll try again.

I've been a professional editor dealing with small scale publication for many years until a few years back. It is exceedingly rare to find people competent in writing, editing, layout and printing management in the same person. In fact, I don't think I ever hit one.

Even self-published authors very, very rarely try to do that all by their lonesome, and those that do are virtually always publishing fiction, which is much less difficult to edit than most forms of RPG book (which are closest to cookbooks in difficulty editing properly, and many editors won't even take on a cookbook at their regular rate.

So my answer to your post is that I think you are seriously overestimating how many small business owners are actually trying to wear as many hats as we're talking about here, in as detailed and time consuming a way. If you are talking about the ones that do so and actually do a competent job of it all by themselves, the number is vanishingly small.

 

[loverdrive]

DW is a really well designed game, but it has a fraction of the market that 5e has. Why? I would say because DW focuses on doing its specific playstyle well, but doesn't really work outside of it. Whereas 5e isn't the best at any one style, but is capable of supporting a fairly broad range of playstyles.

Or because it doesn't have a cultural cachet of D&D.

And then there's a question of what qualifies as "supporting a playstyle". I can't say that 5e really supports any playstyle other than emulating videogames and it's certainly not something that it advertises on.

I can't even say it doesn't obstruct any kind of playstyle other than resource management-based chain of self-contained encounters.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

Yes. lol the idea that other games have nothing to learn from the most successful iteration of any TTRPG in the 50 year history of the hobby is patently absurd.

As is the premise of this thread, frankly. Before 5e’s success, the hobby was smaller. It has grown dramatically. Pretending there is no causal link because y’all don’t want there to be is just silly.

I can't recall the exact text of the original post that prompted my reply as Parmundur has blocked me, and I don't care to go into incognito mode and check what he said for myself.

The hobby as a whole has grown dramatically, yes, and D&D 5e's rise has certainly contributed positively to that on the whole. But who is the primary beneficiary of this growth? The haves, or the have-nots? The already established industry titans, or the newcomers and the cottage designers? That's my central contention here. If the news reports that the economy is growing, but the wages of workers are stagnant and not rising in proportion with that supposed economic boom, is that something to celebrate? The EPI reports that CEO compensation has risen by 940% since 1978; by comparison, the typical worker's wages have only gone up by 12% according to them. The economy is growing, but those at the top are reaping a share of the benefits far beyond what they deserve. Same principle here.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

Well it can lead to some disappointing behavior...

The life of an indie designer in a nutshell. Having to deal with these "special" typed of fans is an all too common occurrence.

 

[MGibster]

And then there's a question of what qualifies as "supporting a playstyle". I can't say that 5e really supports any playstyle other than emulating videogames and it's certainly not something that it advertises on.

Oh, come now. Video games have been emulating D&D since the 1970s.

 

[Fanaelialae]

My initial response to this was overly snarky, so I'll try again.

I've been a professional editor dealing with small scale publication for many years until a few years back. It is exceedingly rare to find people competent in writing, editing, layout and printing management in the same person. In fact, I don't think I ever hit one.

Even self-published authors very, very rarely try to do that all by their lonesome, and those that do are virtually always publishing fiction, which is much less difficult to edit than most forms of RPG book (which are closest to cookbooks in difficulty editing properly, and many editors won't even take on a cookbook at their regular rate.

So my answer to your post is that I think you are seriously overestimating how many small business owners are actually trying to wear as many hats as we're talking about here, in as detailed and time consuming a way. If you are talking about the ones that do so and actually do a competent job of it all by themselves, the number is vanishingly small.

Small, yes. I never suggested otherwise.

Although, I expect that as a professional editor, you likely wouldn't hear from someone who is capable of doing their own editing, since that would be somewhat redundant. Editing is serious work though, no doubt, and a professional editor is invaluable (I used to work professionally as a proofreader for translations, and I've edited the works of a few friends, albeit "unprofessionally", so I have some understanding of the process).

Usain Bolt is unique. Kevin Crawford's success is a rarity, I won't even argue that. However, it is not unique. It might currently be unique in the RPG industry, but as stated that market is tiny by most measures. In terms of small businesses, he is not the only successful one-man-band out there.

By way of citation, I'll point to my friend James' dad, who ran a very successful business by himself for many years, supporting a bit of old software that no one else was willing support anymore.

For those who aren't a one-man-band, they'll need to find their own strengths to be successful, to compensate for their weaknesses. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that running a small business is easy (quite the opposite). I've known quite a few successful small business owners, and it is an tremendous amount of work, with no assurance of success. If you don't put the work in though, failure is all but guaranteed.

 

[loverdrive]

Oh, come now. Video games have been emulating D&D since the 1970s.

It doesn't matter. Out of the box, 5E has very much in common with videogames (classes, xp, ridiculous power curve, looting all the dead bodies, etc) than it has with works of Robert Howard, J.R. Tolkien or Michael Moorcock.

And no other system out there emulates Diablo so closely.

 

[MGibster]

It doesn't matter. Out of the box, 5E has very much in common with videogames (classes, xp, ridiculous power curve, looting all the dead bodies, etc) than it has with works of Robber Howard and Michael Moorcock.

Next time I make a Rogue I'm going to name him Robber Howard!

 

[loverdrive]

Next time I make a Rogue I'm going to name him Robber Howard!

And I'm gonna name my next warforged T9

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I can't recall the exact text of the original post that prompted my reply as Parmundur has blocked me, and I don't care to go into incognito mode and check what he said for myself.

The hobby as a whole has grown dramatically, yes, and D&D 5e's rise has certainly contributed positively to that on the whole. But who is the primary beneficiary of this growth? The haves, or the have-nots? The already established industry titans, or the newcomers and the cottage designers? That's my central contention here. If the news reports that the economy is growing, but the wages of workers are stagnant and not rising in proportion with that supposed economic boom, is that something to celebrate? The EPI reports that CEO compensation has risen by 940% since 1978; by comparison, the typical worker's wages have only gone up by 12% according to them. The economy is growing, but those at the top are reaping a share of the benefits far beyond what they deserve. Same principle here.

Except it isn’t the same principle here. Not only for moral reasons that get political fast, but because they just aren’t like cases, and it takes an absurd set of parameters, or ignoring evidence, to conclude that the growth in the hobby isn’t benefitting small outfits and independent creators.

And parmandur’s claim that you replied “No.” to, was literally just that indie RPGs could learn useful lessons from 5e.