D&D 5E Is 5e's Success Actually Bad for Other Games?

[Malmuria]

I’ve seen the anti-D&D gatekeeping push a lot of people away from the hobby at large, over the last ten years.

Minor point, but is "gatekeeping" seems like slightly the wrong term for this, since they they aren't (I don't think) trying to keep anyone out of the hobby. Maybe it's a kind of elitism, or maybe just a mix of enthusiasm for non-dnd games and resentment of dnd's market share that comes off as elitism.

In any case, one very off-putting example of this, by all involved parties, was some indie designers went in on critical role for playing Monster Hearts "wrong." One said he felt bad for the creator of the game, who I think was actually pretty happy to have critical role streaming her game to all their fans. But then said fans piled on these individuals, as they do.



Critical Role DM Matt Mercer Asks Fans Not To 'Dogpile' On His Critics

 

[darjr]

And I'm gonna name my next warforged T9

I have one named Rosie the Riveter. Sometimes I’ll play a snippet of “whole lot of Rosie” from AC/DC

 

[darjr]

Minor point, but is "gatekeeping" seems like slightly the wrong term for this, since they they aren't (I don't think) trying to keep anyone out of the hobby. Maybe it's a kind of elitism, or maybe just a mix of enthusiasm for non-dnd games and resentment of dnd's market share that comes off as elitism.

In any case, one very off-putting example of this, by all involved parties, was some indie designers went in on critical role for playing Monster Hearts "wrong." One said he felt bad for the creator of the game, who I think was actually pretty happy to have critical role streaming her game to all their fans. But then said fans piled on these individuals, as they do.



Critical Role DM Matt Mercer Asks Fans Not To 'Dogpile' On His Critics

And Matt shows up and is completely cool!

 

[Malmuria]

It doesn't matter. Out of the box, 5E has very much in common with videogames (classes, xp, ridiculous power curve, looting all the dead bodies, etc) than it has with works of Robert Howard, J.R. Tolkien or Michael Moorcock.

And no other system out there emulates Diablo so closely.

Yeah I think at this point it's kind of a feedback loop, with some people expecting the game to run like a modern crpg, like The Witcher 3 except with the dm orchestrated the cut scenes and story. I'm struck by this whenever people refer to "open world" dnd games. Like, aren't all dnd games open world in theory? More open than any "open world" computer game?

 

[loverdrive]

In any case, one very off-putting example of this, by all involved parties, was some indie designers went in on critical role for playing Monster Hearts "wrong."

Didn't watch their video, but from what I've read in the tweet you embedded it really looks like they just completely disregarded all the rules.

"Volatile check" made me facepalm harder than I ever did in the past decade.

 

[darjr]

And Matt shows up and is completely cool!

I think part of the problem is that people need to be able to vent, free form, even if that means they mess up and have a bad take or are not “good”. But doing so on Twitter, amongst your friends, is also amongst every one else and it becomes “who you are” cause no body is going to go back and see you change your mind etc….

 

[Malmuria]

Didn't watch their video, but from what I've read in the tweet you embedded it really looks like they just completely disregarded all the rules.

"Volatile check" made me facepalm harder than I ever did in the past decade.

Same (didn't watch, but inferred that's what they did from the tweets). It's potentially instructive, though, for how long term dnd players might approach a pbta or a different style of game and the type of mistakes they will make.

 

[Parmandur]

And parmandur’s claim that you replied “No.” to, was literally just that indie RPGs could learn useful lessons from 5e.

Yeah, not implying that D&D is some sort of one true way...but it ain't chopped liver, and just because someone enjoys something else more doesn't make one game "objectively" "superior" or "inferior." I do think an awful lot of TTRPGs try too hard to avoid D&Disms, often weirdly the very features that gave gone mainstream in electronic gaming.

 

[Umbran]

The hobby as a whole has grown dramatically, yes, and D&D 5e's rise has certainly contributed positively to that on the whole. But who is the primary beneficiary of this growth?

Except it isn’t the same principle here. Not only for moral reasons that get political fast...

Mod Note:
doctorbadwolf here has an excellent point about things getting political fast.

We are not going to fix the issues of real-world economics here, so, this branch of conversation is all-risk, no reward. Let's allow it to quietly drop away, please and thanks.

 

[Jack Daniel]

Yeah I think at this point it's kind of a feedback loop, with some people expecting the game to run like a modern crpg, like The Witcher 3 except with the dm orchestrated the cut scenes and story. I'm struck by this whenever people refer to "open world" dnd games. Like, aren't all dnd games open world in theory? More open than any "open world" computer game?

There's a qualitative difference between an open world D&D game where a sandbox has been genuinely prepared, and the illusion of an open world game where the railroad tracks are being quietly laid down by the DM just a few feet beyond the horizon of the players' sight.