D&D 5E Is 5e's Success Actually Bad for Other Games?

[RealAlHazred]

I don't get a sense of accusation from that column at all. More like, "We are D&D. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your games will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."

Fair. I was looking for a different editorial, but I'm beginning to suspect it was posted to the RPGA section of the Gleemax forums, and is thus lost to time. It had far more of a tone of, "How COULD you?!?"

 

[Don Durito]

This is speculation, and can't be anything but speculation. That said (and I want it to be clear that, barring the grimdarkness, SotDL is one of the three D&Doids I have any interest in at all):

I think at least some elements of SotDL would have been a bridge too far. Specifically, the attribute folding would likely have gotten a negative response. I also suspect some elements of the magic system (even pulling out Corruption) would have gotten pushback.

Point. I was forgetting about all the sacred cows that were thrown out.

 

[pemerton]

Personally, I don't think it's worthwhile getting angry because a corporation is too corporate. That seems to me like getting angry at the rain for being too wet.

They're likely ruining the day of any social media people who work there, while the CEO probably won't even take notice.

People are going to do what they're going to do. I'm certainly not the boss of them. However, it seems to me that if one is looking to direct their anger somewhere, there are more important things going on in the world than a corporation being more corporate than one might prefer.

Well, the same thing could be said about posting in this thread - for all of us, there are probably other things we could be doing that in some sense would be more important!

But if we accept as a premise that it's the prerogative of a commercial publishing and entertainment venture to be "too corporate", then isn't the prerogative of those it is marketing to to express their preferences? Consumer in a market can hardly be criticised for being too preference-revealing; and given that WotC is doing more than just offering goods for sale - it's actively soliciting feedback and promoting "engagement" as part of its "brand strategy" - then it follows those preferences will be revealed in more ways than just via purchase decisions. If they weren't - if there were no hostile responses on Twitter - that would show that WotC had failed in its brand strategy!

(Which doesn't make life any easier for the social media person, I'll concede.)

I do think that some fans are feeling frustrated by the corporate side of WotC that feels at odds with the fan-friendly face they put on. I don't think it's really about the survey itself, but deeper issues.

This sounds right to me.

The interesting question for me is not why are some people getting angry - that seems unsurprising enough - but rather how has an entity that is at its heart simply a commercial publisher persuaded so many to see the world of fiction/imagination/collaborative entertainment through the lens of its commercial concerns? That question is part of a broader set of questions about how so many aspects of human culture and hence so many aspects of individual human lives have been marketised and (thereby) corporatised.

There's still no tax on breathing air; but how has WotC succeeded in imposing a de facto tax on so many people's leisure time and entertainment? (Obviously WotC is not the first. For the phenomenon as I experience I'd start with Disney and Star Wars, but that's based on intuition, not any sort of systematic study.)

They’re whining loudly about a voluntary survey by a game company they already didn’t like.

It’s useless negativity that isn’t even really relevant, and comes across as you smugly throwing dung in the faces of people who like something you don’t, to no useful purpose.

The DnD community was the first fan community that really taught me not to trust fan communities. The thing you're describing was also a harsh reminder that the average person is just more...mean, than I expect them to be. Every time I see someone post about how welcoming the dnd community is I roll my eyes.

There's a degree of tension between these two posts, I think.

Anyway, it seems to me that those Twitter posters are deeply invested in D&D.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

There's a degree of tension between these two posts, I think.

Anyway, it seems to me that those Twitter posters are deeply invested in D&D.

No tension at all, actually.

Deep investment in a thing doesn't excuse, and isn't even relevant to, the kind of toxic pile-on whining happening on twitter wrt the survey.

 

[Don Durito]

I personally think deep investment in commerical products is in itself somewhat problematic.

 

[MerricB]

Okay, now let's look at some Kickstarter numbers... these are the number of backers of these RPG projects:

2012: 13th Age: 13 True Ways (expansion) - 846
2013: Fate Core - 10,103
2013: Numenara - 4,658
2013: Call of Cthulhu 7th Edition - 3,668
2013: CoC: Horror on the Orient Express - 1,374
2014: The Strange - 2,883
2015: 13th Age in Glorantha - 1,249
2015: Runequest Classic edition - 2,176
2015: Mage: The Ascention 20th Anniversary - 3,926
2016: 7th Sea Kickstarter - 11,483
2017: Numenera 2 - 4,185
2018: Strongholds & Streaming (5E supplement from Matt Colville) - 28,918
2018: The Expanse RPG - 5,714
2020: Root RPG - 6,495
2020: Deadlands Weird West Savage Worlds - 4,973
2020: Stargate SG-1 - 6,415
2021: The One Ring 2nd Edition - 16,596
2021: Kindoms & Warfare (5E Supplement, Matt Colville) - 19,033
2021: Coyote & Crow, the RPG - 16,269
2021: Conan RPG - 4,352

Kickstarter launched in 2009, btw. Can anyone think of some good projects from 2009-2014 to add to the list? Or even later ones?

(I find it interesting that the biggest kickstarters for non-D&D products are mostly in the last year or two).

Dates are projected release dates, btw - finding the actual date is a bit trickier, so I didn't bother.

Cheers!

 

[pemerton]

I personally think deep investment in commerical products is in itself somewhat problematic.

Yes and no.

Deep investment in literature, or folk tale, or legend, isn't normally see as problematic. Get deeply enough invested and you might get a job in a humanities school!

When folk tales and legends have all been commercialised, what are people to do? They can treat their cultural life as a mere accessory (like many other commercial products) but that's a bit alienating. Or they can become deeply invested in a commercial product, with all the unhappiness and vulnerability to exploitation (sorry, really effective sales pitches!) that flows from that.

 

[Malmuria]

Yes and no.

Deep investment in literature, or folk tale, or legend, isn't normally see as problematic. Get deeply enough invested and you might get a job in a humanities school!

When folk tales and legends have all been commercialised, what are people to do? They can treat their cultural life as a mere accessory (like many other commercial products) but that's a bit alienating. Or they can become deeply invested in a commercial product, with all the unhappiness and vulnerability to exploitation (sorry, really effective sales pitches!) that flows from that.

This is probably one reason why this question (the original question of the thread) is really difficult to answer. Dnd 5e is a lifestyle brand by itself. It both brings people into "the hobby" but equally prevents a lot of them from exploring too far past its horizons.

 

[Thomas Shey]

This is probably one reason why this question (the original question of the thread) is really difficult to answer. Dnd 5e is a lifestyle brand by itself. It both brings people into "the hobby" but equally prevents a lot of them from exploring too far past its horizons.

"Prevents" seems overly strong; but I'd agree with "discourages".

 

[pemerton]

Okay, now let's look at some Kickstarter numbers... these are the number of backers of these RPG projects

Here are projects I've backed:

2016: Burning Wheel Codex (a supplement) - 2109

2016: Prince Valiant (bringing Greg Stafford's classic back into print) - 952

2020: Orbital - 1903

2020: Torchbearer 2nd ed - 3593