D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

[FrogReaver]

And here you remind me again. Exactly when are you going to back out for once and all?

When I say I'm bowing out that doesn't mean you get to accuse me of things I didn't do and expect I won't respond to set the record straight.

But from here, feel free to have the last word as I can't imagine anything left I'd feel compelled to set the record straight about at this point.

 

[ECMO3]

Yeah. I agree with you that it's intent is to use in combat to take something small if you make the opposed check. However, it's not as good as you are trying to make it out to be. It's a 3rd level ability for God's sake. You can't see into unknown pouches to know what to take, nor can you take multiple objects at once. At best, you get lucky and take something for a significant spell.

You can't see into unknown anything to know what to take. It would be useless if this is how it was ruled. Are you suggesting that any time I take somethuing from any container as described in the ability it is entirely random what I get out of it?

When the wizard casts fireball, he reaches in to his pouch finds the bat guano among all the other things in there and takes it out. You do the same thing- reach in find the bat guano and take it out. Now if I say I reach for the bat guano, and there is no bat guano in there. Well then sure, you are right I don't get anything, but if it is in there and I pass the check I get it. In this discussion let's remember that you are not even letting him lift the whole pouch as was intended.

Think about the implication for other uses if we take this interpretation - I reach into the guards pack and grab the keys to the cell. Well no you don't get the keys, you get the leftovers of yesterday's rations because it is an unknown backpack so it is random what you pull out. Ok I do it again - This time you get a flask of brandy but not the keays. This is the logical interpretation of applying this as you say it should be. It would be a completely useless ability that they spent 3 paragraphs describing if this was the case.

It is also not very powerful for a 3rd-level ability. Many abilities and spells can completely disable a foe that fails a save. For an apt comparison consider:
1. A 3rd-level Rogue going against a caster using a component pouch or who puts his arcane focus away can TRY to steal said focus or pouch with a successful check, assuming his hand starts the turn less than 30 feet from the caster. IF the check is successful, the spellcaster can not cast spells with a material component until he gets it back.

2. For comparison, a 3rd-level Bard or Cleric who starts his turn less than ~170 feet of a caster can cast silence and the caster can not cast spells that use a verbal component. There is no save to this, it is always successful.

There are far more V spells than M spells and almost every M spell also has a V. As such it is pretty obvious which of these 3rd-level abilities is more powerful.

 

[ECMO3]

When I say I'm bowing out that doesn't mean you get to accuse me of things I didn't do and expect I won't respond to set the record straight.

If you keep replying to "set the record straight" then you are not bowing out.

 

[Maxperson]

You can't see into unknown anything to know what to take. It would be useless if this is how it was ruled. Are you suggesting that any time I take somethuing from any container as described in the ability it is entirely random what I get out of it?

It would be quite useful, actually. It's a bonus action so you can potentially remove a spell a round from his arsenal. That's pretty good.

And yes, unless you can see what you are taking or know where in the container it is, there's no way for you to take a specific object. That's just common sense.

When the wizard casts fireball, he reaches in to his pouch finds the bat guano among all the other things in there and takes it out. You do the same thing- reach in find the bat guano and take it out.

Where? He has dozens of components in there. You didn't see where in the bag he grabbed it from. He knows where it is, not you.

Well then sure, you are right I don't get anything, but if it is in there and I pass the check I get it. In this discussion let's remember that you are not even letting him lift the whole pouch as was intended.

No you don't get the guano, and no it was not intended for that ability to grant you X-ray vision or omniscience. It was intended for you take an object in a location you know about OR take something random in a container full of potential goodies.

Think about the implication for other uses if we take this interpretation - I reach into the guards pack and grab the keys to the cell. Well no you don't get the keys, you get the leftovers of yesterday's rations because it is an unknown backpack so it is random what you pull out. Ok I do it again - This time you get a flask of brandy but not the keays. This is the logical interpretation of applying this as you say it should be. It would be a completely useless ability that they spent 3 paragraphs describing if this was the case.

Perhaps you don't understand what sleight of hand is. It's not the ability to fish around inside a container for 15 or 20 seconds looking for a specific object, especially since you are using Mage Hand and can't even feel what you are taking. You quickly and hopefully unnoticed grab an object. You don't to take time looking around the container first. If you don't know exactly where the object is, you get the first thing you come across.

 

[ECMO3]

It's very clear that the intent is for it to only take ONE object from a container that's worn, and the pouch is in fact a container that is worn. Nothing is being nerfed. You are increasing the power of the ability, much the same way that a lot of people treat Charm Person like some sort of mind control, rather than the 1st level spell that it is. The ability was never intended to be able to disarm Wizards like that. It's intent is to allow you to steal a single small item.

Yeah, I wouldn't allow that. You can't see inside the pouch, so if you're grabbing a small item, it's going to be a random small item. Unless you've somehow previously gained access to the pouch and memorized where the ruby dust is. The Rogue ability doesn't grant X-ray Vision or omniscience.

The ability is meant to be used to steal something off of an enemy, most would consider a spell component pouch or focus a single item. That is exactly how it was intended to be used. The ability does not change because the thing I am trying to steal is important to the combat power of the character I am stealing it from.

So any time I reach into any container with this ability I get a random item?

Let's have another example - the wizard is using a wand as a focus and has a weapon in his other hand. He casts his spell and then stows they wand in its case or quiver or whatever so he can have a free hand to cast shield or counterspell or something like that. Can I steal the wand from the case? Stealing the whole pouch is not any more powerful than stealing the wand, and stealing the wand would eliminate all his M spells in one shot.

As I noted in the last post it is wholely inferior to other third level abilities and spells that could be used for this purpose.

 

[ECMO3]

It would be quite useful, actually. It's a bonus action so you can potentially remove a spell a round from his arsenal. That's pretty good.

That is the idea. If I am close enough and don't have other uses

As I said in the other thread, what if he is not using a pouch and I just take his entire focus when he stows that?

And yes, unless you can see what you are taking or know where in the container it is, there's no way for you to take a specific object. That's just common sense.

No it isn't. It is pretty obvious you reach in and get out what you want.

Where? He has dozens of components in there. You didn't see where in the bag he grabbed it from. He knows where it is, not you.

To be clear, I think the rules intend for you to be able to take the entire pouch. You are nerfing it to start with.

What if he puts his component pouch in a pocket or sack or backpack, can I take the whole thing then since it is in a container?

No you don't get the guano, and no it was not intended for that ability to grant you X-ray vision or omniscience. It was intended for you take an object in a location you know about OR take something random in a container full of potential goodies.

It allows you to take something. It is presumed that you know what you are taking and where you are taking it from. It does not say in the ability that you reach into a container worn by another creature and get a random thing from it.

How about if I use it to reach into my allies pack and grab his potion of healing so I can revive him? Do I get a random item from his backpack because I am not familiar with where he put his potion of healing?

Perhaps you don't understand what sleight of hand is. It's not the ability to fish around inside a container for 15 or 20 seconds looking for a specific object, especially since you are using Mage Hand and can't even feel what you are taking. You quickly and hopefully unnoticed grab an object. You don't to take time looking around the container first. If you don't know exactly where the object is, you get the first thing you come across.

It is not 15 to 20 seconds; reach in, grab the bat guano and get out and in this discussion lets also be clear that we are talking about doing it with magic ...and of course this is only being discussed because I can't reach in and grab the whole pouch.

Who says I can't feel what I am taking? I can use it to pick locks in 6 seconds from 30 feet away for crying out loud! Do you think I could do that if I could not feel with the hand? It would be a heck of a lot harder to do that then pull a marble or bat shite out of a pouch.

Based on the description it would strongly imply that you can feel what you are doing.

 

[Maxperson]

The ability is meant to be used to steal something off of an enemy, most would consider a spell component pouch or focus a single item. That is exactly how it was intended to be used. The ability does not change because the thing I am trying to steal is important to the combat power of the character I am stealing it from.

Er, no. Most would consider it a container full of items.

So any time I reach into any container with this ability I get a random item?

Unless you know where an item is, that is what sleight of hand does, yes. It doesn't grant you supernatural senses or knowledge.

Let's have another example - the wizard is using a wand as a focus and has a weapon in his other hand. He casts his spell and then stows they wand in its case or quiver or whatever so he can have a free hand to cast shield or counterspell or something like that. Can I steal the wand from the case? Stealing the whole pouch is not any more powerful than stealing the wand.

If you can see it or where it was put in the case, yes. This isn't about power. This is about how sleight of hand works and common sense. I mentioned power only because you were inflating this one beyond its intended purpose.

 

[ECMO3]

Er, no. Most would consider it a container full of items.

Unless you know where an item is, that is what sleight of hand does, yes. It doesn't grant you supernatural senses or knowledge.

If you can see it or where it was put in the case, yes. This isn't about power. This is about how sleight of hand works and common sense. I mentioned power only because you were inflating this one beyond its intended purpose.

I do know where the item is! It is in his component pouch, along with all the other components. Now if he keeps his guano somewhere else on his person fine. But if I say I reach into his component pouch WHERE THE GUANO IS to take the bat guano that is in there, then I get it if the check is successful. This is silly because RAI I should be able to take the entire pouch, as that is a small item.

You are just purposefully trying to make it harder for a character, you keep throwing up obstacles when this is clearly within the intended use. You said it yourself, it is designed to make it so the Rogue can steal a small item, which an entire component pouch is. Yet for some reason you do not want to allow that.

Regarding a component pouch - it takes up one slot on your inventory, you buy it as one thing at an adventuring shop. For most it would be considered one small item. If I reach in and try to grab silver powder, that I saw him use do I have to take it out one grain at a time?

 

[Maxperson]

I do know where the item is! It is in his component pouch, along with all the other components. Now if he keeps his guano somewhere else on his person fine. But if I say I reach into his component pouch WHERE THE GUANO IS to take the bat guano that is in there, then I get it if the check is successful. This is silly because RAI I should be able to take the entire pouch, as that is a small item.

Here's an exercise. get a friend to get a small bag and fill it with random dice. Have him show you one and then puts in the bag in a spot of his choosing. Then you reach in and have 6 seconds to grab that specific die while he is opposing you. Heck, he doesn't even have to oppose you. You still won't be able to just reach in and grab it. You won't know where it is.

You are just purposefully to make it harder for a character, you keep throwing up obstacles when this is clearly within the intended use. You said it yourself, it is designed to make it so the Rogue can steal a small item, which an entire component pouch is. Yet for some reason you do not want to allow that.

The only thing I'm purposefully doing is making it what it is meant to be. Feel free to increase its power and give you godlike knowledge of where every little thing on someone is. It's your game.

 

[ECMO3]

Here's an exercise. get a friend to get a small bag and fill it with random dice. Have him show you one and then puts in the bag in a spot of his choosing. Then you reach in and have 6 seconds to grab that specific die while he is opposing you. Heck, he doesn't even have to oppose you. You still won't be able to just reach in and grab it. You won't know where it is.

The only thing I'm purposefully doing is making it what it is meant to be. Feel free to increase its power and give you godlike knowledge of where every little thing on someone is. It's your game.

Three things.

1. The check is to see if he is noticed. I said earlier if he fails the check he can not get it. He would not be opposing the Rogue if the Rogue passes the check. If he catches him doing this then he would be opposing and it would fails.

2. If you gave me a bag full of dice and asked me to pull out a 20 sided dice I ABSOLUTELY could do that in 6 seconds with no problem. I could do it in half that with no problem. I might even be able to get out 4 specific dice types in 6 seconds and I don't have exceptional dexterity and have been trained specifically to do this.

3. Your scaling is off because IRL I am not the equivalent of an expert Rogue using a spell augmented by magic. We can approximate this though. We know the mage hand can pick a lock in 6 seconds. I think IRL I could pick a simple lock from the middle ages in about 5 minutes ... or about 300 seconds (newer locks I could not pick at all). Considering that the mage hand through dexterity and magic can accomplish in 6 seconds what I can do in about 300 seconds; it stands to reason that I should have 5 minutes of digging through a pouch to model what a mage hand should logically be able to do in 6 seconds.