D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

[ECMO3]

The bag has about 3 dozen dice of all types. Many components are very similar, and you don't have 6 seconds to feel around. The 6 seconds includes moving the mage hand to the pouch and moving it back out again as well, so you have only a second or two. AND, you have no tactile feeling, so to be accurate, you'd need to numb your hand before you try so you can't feel the dice. Mage Hands have no sensory ability.

In 2 seconds I could easily pick out a 20-sided dice in a bag with 3 dozen dice and I am not an expert Rogue aided by a magic spell specifically designed for this purpose.

Why do you think the hand does not have tactile feeling? The description strongly implies that it does. If it did not have tactile feeling it could not pick a lock in 6 seconds from 30 feet away ... it could not pick a lock at all. Without tactile feel (and without eyes) how could it even choose the right file from the thieves tools to use in the lock? For that matter how would you take something out of a pack unoticed even if you knew exactly where it was in the container, how would you know when the fingers were around it?

I guess you could say there is no tactile feel and it just does all these things through "magic" of course, but it would have to be one or the other or it could not do any of the things the description says it can do.

Claiming a "magic" hand can not pick something out of a pack because it has no tactical feel is the equivalent of saying someone who uses the levitate spell can't leave the ground because he is not weightless.

 

[Maxperson]

Honestly the problem is basically this.

Fighter: Guy who fights
Barbarian: Guy who fights and has a little bit of nature skills and does seem to get more skills fairly randomly as he levels up.
Ranger: Guy who fights and tracks and hunts and has some nature magic.
Paladin: Guy who fights and smites and has a good Charisma and has some divine magic.
Barbarian: Guy who fights and has a little bit of nature skills.

Conceptually, right back to 1e the non-fighter warriors were basically Fighters+.

Fighters need more identity. Personally I'd lean more into aspects of crossover of Fighter and Warlord. It makes sense based on what the Fighter has evolved into that the Fighter is the person who knows how to lead armies and train warriors and besiege castles and possibly even repair and forge weapons. This gives you something to actually hang non-combat options on.

But what about the guy who just wants to hit things and not engage beyond that, I hear people say?

Tell them to ignore the class features they don't want to use.
Or just give them a sidekick character. Apparently balance isn't important anyway.

I don't think that's entirely accurate.

Fighter: Guy who fights and uses maneuvers, magic arrows(if using other books) or spells(your description was only the Champion).

Heck, if we use other books, the Samurai gets a bonus skill and an ability to excel in social situations. You could easily just pick that subclass and re-flavor it to be Joe Shmoe Fighter.

 

[Maxperson]

Honestly giving Fighters more skills doesn't really achieve that much. The skill system in 5e is pretty awful. The random element overwhelms the actual skill to a significant degree.

Right, which is why I was saying that they can already hold their own pretty well as is in both social and exploration.

 

[Minigiant]

Balance is not important.

Therefore I suggest the following change for 6E.

Action Surge: You kill every enemy that you can see. If the enemy is already technically dead or not really alive you instead hack or pulverise them into hunks of meat, bone or metal as appropriate. You may use this a number of times per day equal to the age of the oldest player minus the age of the youngest player.

Honestly the problem is basically this.

Fighter: Guy who fights
Barbarian: Guy who fights and has a little bit of nature skills and does seem to get more skills fairly randomly as he levels up.
Ranger: Guy who fights and tracks and hunts and has some nature magic.
Paladin: Guy who fights and smites and has a good Charisma and has some divine magic.
Barbarian: Guy who fights and has a little bit of nature skills.

Conceptually, right back to 1e the non-fighter warriors were basically Fighters+.

Fighters need more identity. Personally I'd lean more into aspects of crossover of Fighter and Warlord. It makes sense based on what the Fighter has evolved into that the Fighter is the person who knows how to lead armies and train warriors and besiege castles and possibly even repair and forge weapons. This gives you something to actually hang non-combat options on.

But what about the guy who just wants to hit things and not engage beyond that, I hear people say?

Tell them to ignore the class features they don't want to use.
Or just give them a sidekick character. Apparently balance isn't important anyway.

The Fighter has an identity. The Fighter is the Elite Warrior.

Either through a martial culture, a supported warrior class, a special military force, an advanced combat tutor or trainer, or being a prodigy at arms and armor, a fighter fights better than anyone else.

Those things that give the fighter better combat ability bleed to other parts of life in skills and tools.

The Problem is many see the Fighter as a Basic Warrior. That any slob can do some drills and take a level in fighter after a month or two. This limits the class and in turn lowers the bar or ceiling for other classes.

 

[Maxperson]

I could pick out a 20-sided easy in a bag with 3 dozen dice in even 2 seconds and I am not an expert Rogue using magic.

First, you couldn't pick out a certain color of 20 sided die(specific spell component). Second, you don't have a sense of touch, remember? You are unable to feel which one is the 20 sided and which is a 4 sided.

Why do you think the hand does not have tactile feeling?

1. It's a hand of magic, not a real one. 2. because the spell doesn't say that it does, so it doesn't. You don't get to add things into spells just because the spell is silent on the subject.

The description strongly implies that it does. If it did not have tactile feeling it could not pick a lock in 6 seconds from 30 feet away ... it could not pick a lock at all.

Sure it can. It's the special ability of the subclass, so it works. What it does not say is that it has a sense of touch or that you can choose specific objects as if you were a god. If you can't see the object and you don't know where in the container it is, you are guessing blind. You also don't get to add in abilities that you want to be there. You can only go by what it says.

 

[Don Durito]

The Fighter has an identity. The Fighter is the Elite Warrior.

Either through a martial culture, a supported warrior class, a special military force, an advanced combat tutor or trainer, or being a prodigy at arms and armor, a fighter fights better than anyone else.

Those things that give the fighter better combat ability bleed to other parts of life in skills and tools.

The Problem is many see the Fighter as a Basic Warrior. That any slob can do some drills and take a level in fighter after a month or two. This limits the class and in turn lowers the bar or ceiling for other classes.

Then everything I said can safely be added to the Fighter.

The elite warrior throughout history, your Knights, your Samurai etc don't just study hitting people with pointy sticks, they study war, and are expected to be able to inspire lead and direct your basic warriors.

 

[Don Durito]

I don't think that's entirely accurate.

Fighter: Guy who fights and uses maneuvers, magic arrows(if using other books) or spells(your description was only the Champion).

Heck, if we use other books, the Samurai gets a bonus skill and an ability to excel in social situations. You could easily just pick that subclass and re-flavor it to be Joe Shmoe Fighter.

The Samurai level 7 feature is actually quite good. The problem is 1) you don't get it unti level 7, and 2) It's attached to the rest of the Samurai subclass.

 

[Vaalingrade]

1. It's a hand of magic, not a real one. 2. because the spell doesn't say that it does, so it doesn't. You don't get to add things into spells just because the spell is silent on the subject.

I'm not convinced Magic Hand could work if there wasn't some sort of feedback analogous to at least pressure sense. Ever try picking up something with a numb hand? How do you know when it's grasping firmly?

I mean 'it's magic, we don't have to explain it', but Mage hand is weird in a way D&D normally doesn't go otherwise. Does that mean it's like... a piece of an unseen servant that follows orders? That can't be it because the Arcane Trickster can use their personal skills through it.

 

[Maxperson]

The Samurai level 7 feature is actually quite good. The problem is 1) you don't get it unti level 7, and 2) It's attached to the rest of the Samurai subclass.

Those other abilities are pretty good.

 

[Yaarel]

Then give yours 2 tools. I don't think that's necessary, since they would use different tools for leather, mail and plate armors, but you can do it.

Looking thru the Tools list, and comparing to reallife warriors from various cultures: the Fighter should have official access to at least the following Tools:

Fighter Tools

• Alchemist (explosions, Greek fire, metallurgy)
• Brewers (morale)
• Calligraphers (knight, samurai, etcetera)
• Cartographers (maps, obviously)
• Cobblers (military marches)
• Cooks (morale)
• Leatherworkers (leather armor)
• Smiths (weapons and armor)
• Tinkers (general repairs and adhoc solutions)
• Woodcarver (bows and arrows, and passtime)
• Gaming (passtime)
• Herbalism (first aid, obviously)
• Musical (morale, passtime)
• Navigator (obviously)
• Vehicles (obviously)

Wizards grow up learning skills before they apprentice, and during their apprenticeship they learn many secrets and much knowledge, not just about arcana. They should also have 4 skills to represent that knowledge and training in non-magical areas. They also have to learn to find secrets(investigation), see that which is hidden(search), etc.

Wizards grow up learning magical skills, the way the elements of the world interact, cycles of nature, enchanting minds, how the body works while shapeshifting, the magical properties of certain plants, etcetera.

Wizards know zero about throwing daggers, or other martial training. Wizards fight with cantrips. If there is a Wizard who does wield a sword, there is a magical reason for it.

(Eldritch Knight is a concept that masters both arcane and martial.)

As I said, you can make the same kinds of justifications to increase the skills of every class.

The Fighter flavor includes reallife warriors who are known for formal aristocratic education, general life skills, and a resourcefulness that is vital during war.

They already get 4 skills when you factor in background, and get more ASIs, so if they use feats can take the skilled feat and gain 3 more. What Fighters get already allows them to be one of the most skilled classes in the game(excluding expertise). 4 skills at level 1 and with their 3 bonus ASIs, they can easily afford to use one to be proficient in 7 skills. Then they can take other feats like Actor to get advantage on deception and performance checks, etc.

Backgrounds are great. I am talking about the Fighter class is about. This particular class needs more skills and tools, not only to actualize certain warrior character concepts, but also mechanically to better address noncombat pillars of the gaming engine.