D&D General My Problem(s) With Halflings, and How To Create Engaging/Interesting Fantasy Races

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No way they ever get rid of halflings even with no lore changes. Sorry it would be just a horribly misguided business decision.

Imagine not being able to be "Bilbo" in a fantasy role playing game? The average customer base would be like "wtf?!". The preeminent fantasy rpg not being able represent the pioneer in the fantasy genre at all.

Now us more involved gamers could suggest playing another game or argue that Middle Earth is not default DnD, etc. But for the average customer - who probably generates the vast amount of revenue for the business, who likes to play as a social hobby with friends and just doesn't care that much? They don't care that Gandalf can't be represented well in a DnD stat block or that two weapon fighting does less DPR or the halflings are kind of like small humans.

But if u don't like halflings, then you do what you need to do in your own campaign to make them palatable. These forums are a good place to get feedback on campaign ideas, etc. I've seen some pretty cool halfling homebrew lore in this very thread. I notice a marked difference in reactions on this forum between "here's an idea for my campaign" and "this part of the game sucks and needs to be changed".
 

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I'm just grabbing bits and pieces, I'm getting tired of repeating myself and going nowhere.
I'm getting tired of it too.
Actually, it does. Musical tropes exist. The dramatic swell of music before the final confrontation or somethign epic happening is a trope. A trope that can then be subverted by starting that swell, starting that moment, and then cutting it off as something less dramatic happens. Or by using that dramatic swell of music for something as simple as heating up a burrito in the microwave.
Addressing the least salient part of a reply to respond to is a choice.

That said, your "dramatic swell" example has nothing to do with phonic compatibility, and as an example works poorly since you are framing it as a reference point for some other media rather than as an independent piece of art. Either that or you are mixing your metaphors and I've missed a connection somewhere.
We might have less writable math involved, but story elements do have something measurable in them. We can tell when a scene goes on too long, or a moment is too short. Being less precise doesn't mean these things don't exist.
You say "less writable math". Are you contending that there is any writable math? Or is it just that "zero" is technically "less" than any writable math but sounds way worse?

Separately who is this "we" you keep referring to? And how do you "tell" that this is the case? And why aren't all of you (plural) busy working as professional screenwriters, and musicians, etc. Why are you (plural) continuing to allow us to be subjected to all these flawed works of art when you (plural) have the formulae for their perfection?

I don't understand..is it laziness? Or are you (singular) simply overstating you're (plural) capabilities?
I don't think I could claim a true consensus without somehow being able to poll a far larger portion of the community than I have access to. However, I can go and find a few sources in a few moments to show that this is not simply my own personal observation.
This was a simple question, were you claiming an authoritative consensus? Since you are now having to expend the effort to research it..the correct answer was...

"No."

It was just your singular opinion, and you were speculating.
I'm only going to address #2
I understand. It is difficult to support how one's own particular critical take on a subject matter could constitute objective truth.
to try and claim that each table is an island, and that DnD has no shared values is... just flat wrong. Yes, people can refine things in their own ways, but let us just take a single thing to prove my point. DnD magic is safe, and it does not harm a caster to cast magic.

Can an individual table change that? Sure, they can, but they are certainly changing a common core of DnD.
Does the individual table that chooses to make magic unsafe "simply not work"?

Yes, I know what facts are.
You haven't provided much evidence of that. Your example of "the core theme of LoTR is a battle of good vs. evil" relies on establishing some factual basis for "good" and "evil".

Given that thousands of years of philosophy and religion have failed to yield a singular basis for those determinations, I'm comfortable saying that there isn't one.

Further, if I were to say that "the core theme of LoTR is freedom vs. tyranny", how would we determine the truth or falsity of my "fact"? And, if my claim is true, does it invalidate yours?

All this is a long way to get to..."No, that is not a fact"
More accurate anology

"This is the price of this item compared to this other item"

"I have no interest in money, why are you being so elitist to put a price on things"

"IF you want to discuss the price, we can, but dismissing that prices are put on things at a basic level doesn't make any sense"
More more accurate analogy

Me: You can prove your claim?
You: I will prove it..Here's my opinion.
Me: Opinions are not proof
You: Why won't you debate my opinion with your opinion
Me: Because opinions are not proof.
You: But why...

To conclude..
Since we're grab bagging it, I'll go ahead and quote myself.
So.. your interpretation is your opinion..and not "objective fact".

I mean, we could have skipped a lot of back and forth if you'd acknowledged that earlier. I disagree with that opinion..and that's fine.
I notice you didn't dispute this part. If it's because you agree, then yeah, I think we're done here.
 

Read Cadence's reply.

Sorry, which one? They have a good dozen replies between your post and mine.

So, the fact that they're lucky enough to never roll a 1 means that they're not lucky?

So is a human or dwarf player who never rolls a 1. That doesn't make the halfling special. Heck, the player probably only noticed because they were expecting to reroll and never did, while the other players being that "lucky" is never even brought up.

I have already given you numerous examples of how to do this. If you can't figure it out from there, you need to read up on GMing 101.

To reiterate:
  • They roll and succeed, or they roll and fail: This is just like with anyone else, although a halfling may be more likely to ascribe this to good or bad luck than to skill, because they are superstitious and believe very strongly in luck.
  • They roll a 1, reroll, and succeed: They succeeded by the seat of their sensibly sturdy trousers*. See? Lady Luck is smiling on them.
  • They roll a 1, reroll, and fail: They failed normally instead of catastrophically. See? Lady Luck is smiling on them, because things could have been a lot worse.
  • They roll a 1, reroll, and roll another 1: They have failed catastrophically. Fickle Fate has flicked them the finger, which she is wont to do on occasion. (I ran out of alliteration.)
(* Halflings invented denim. Change my mind.)

Would it be too much to ask for you to respond without insulting my GMing skills at least once? It really gets old to be constantly told that I must be a terrible GM because something that it seems no one has a good answer for gives me issues.

To go through your reiterations

#1 -> Tell the player to be superstitious about their ability to succeed. By the way, failing is usually considered bad luck (instead of poor skill) and there for it would be that the halfling who is lucky, is portraying themselves being unlucky with equal frequency to every other player, unless they decide that instead of being skillful, they were lucky. This is not a great solution to making a race feel lucky at all.

#2 -> In this one instance, they were lucky. Congrats! I had acknowledged that this is something you can do, but it requires first a failed roll with a 1, which is only 5%, not counting the percentage of rolls, and even if we assume every single roll is 50/50 that means that this ability comes up for only 2.5% of die rolls. Or about two and half rolls for every two hundred rolls

Is that enough for a race to be seen as unusually lucky? What do I do if the player doesn't feel like this ability makes them feel lucky enough?

#3 -> We don't use crit fail rules. So this is a complete non-issue. This is basically going back up to the otherside of point #1, they just fail. Whether that was bad luck or lack of skill, or something else, it is no different than their normal failures.

#4 -> Again, we don't use crit fails as a rule. So, again, this is identical to #3 and #1


So, I guess by me needing to go back to GMing 101 you meant that I should incorporate a homebrew rule that my groups have universally agreed not to use because we dislike it, and then hope that the halfling player is satisified pretending to be unusually lucky, or rolls a lot of 1's that they then succeed on the second roll.

Man, no wonder I'm a terrible GM with no talent. I should just tell my players to do it themselves. That's how I make sure that a race who has a major feature of being lucky is actually portrayed as lucky.

Halflings have advantage on saving throws against being frightened.

Dwarfs have advantage on saving throws against being poisoned (and resistance to poison damage).

Elves have advantage on saving throws against being charmed.

How do you make dwarfs and elves feel more resistant to toxins and mind-control without making the other players play their characters in specific ways? I mean, if you, like probably most other gamers, assume that poisons also includes alcohol and dwarfs are naturally resistant to the effects of alcohol and therefore can drink like a particularly stupid college student on spring break and not feel a thing, do you force the other PCs to be lightweights in order to show how special a dwarf's liver is?

No, but you are missing the point.

To be resistant to poison means that poison needs to be introduced. And yes, a common way to do that is through alcohol, and anyone with poison resistance having a much higher tolerance. I've actually got a few alcoholic drinks that I won't even have a person who has poison resistance roll to down, but I will for someone who doesn't.

But, introducing poison is a specific element. There is no question about when poison comes into play.

Against Charm Effects? Same thing. Advantage against charm magic is a specific event, and it is easy enough to describe characters who are elves fighting harder or something else.

"Brave" is a against Fear. But fear and bravery are basic emotions and they are something that is up to interpretation. If I introduce poison to the game, the players don't get to tell me how their body reacts to poison. But if I introduce something frightening, they do get to tell me how they react to that fear.

Which is why my initial point was that halflings are unusually resistant to magical fear... which can work, but it doesn't make them particularly brave, in the standard way of understanding it. Because fear is a basic emotion, it is much harder to figure out how to incorporate this trait in a way that makes sense for the setting and how things work.

Especially when you consider that Gnomes are ALSO resistant to fear AND charm from magical effects, due to gnome cunning. But if I said gnomes are unusually brave, people would likely disagree with me.

And again: it is up to the players if they want to roleplay their characters as being frightened or not of something mundane. Not up to you.

Right. So, why do you keep accusing me for being a bad DM for saying that I don't know how to make a race of people feel like they are particularly brave, when the entire thing is up to the players and has nothing to do with me? And being up to the players, it is entirely possible that the halfling player who wanted to be specially brave, feels like they aren't because the other players are also RPing themselves as equally brave?



So stop complaining about it until then. Talk about how a future edition can improve them or come up with your own lore about them instead of kvetching about how boring they are and dismissing everyone else's attempts to show you what they can be.

I DID try talking about them for future editions. Everyone decided that I was a terrible person and you've spent multiple pages attacking me as a GM and everything else because I can't see how I can homebrew them to be better for my table.

I know I can homebrew them. I know I can change them for myself. The entire point though is that they weren't like that right now, and that is a problem for editions going forward if we just keep ignoring halflings and thinking that the strength of Tolkien is enough to support them.
 

I totally agree.

At the same time, one can heighten the theme, via mechanics and lore, that a halfling is a kind of house sprite. And in this way, be less human, and have more in common with gnome.

The house sprite is responsible for the good fortune of a house, including good crops and healthy animals and so on. So the Lucky trait is great for the theme. It would be even better if the halfling can share its lucky trait with other characters who are cohabiting with the halfling.

Making other people around them lucky is something they've done in some UA and such once or twice. I don't think it ever went well, but I do remember they did a decent job of that in 4e
 

Who is telling you that?

Perhaps Faolyn and Oofta, the two people who keep saying that I must need to reasses how I DM because I have this issue that they think is completely not an issue.... then they basically propose just letting the player's handle it themselves.

But it isn't. At all. It's very easy to show. Because every time the halfling player rolls with advantage, everyone at the table knows it. That's it. You don't need to do any more.

And that doesn't lead to the halfling feeling particularly brave. The Gnome rolls with advantage too, are they a race known for their Bravery?
 

No way they ever get rid of halflings even with no lore changes. Sorry it would be just a horribly misguided business decision.

Imagine not being able to be "Bilbo" in a fantasy role playing game? The average customer base would be like "wtf?!". The preeminent fantasy rpg not being able represent the pioneer in the fantasy genre at all.

Now us more involved gamers could suggest playing another game or argue that Middle Earth is not default DnD, etc. But for the average customer - who probably generates the vast amount of revenue for the business, who likes to play as a social hobby with friends and just doesn't care that much? They don't care that Gandalf can't be represented well in a DnD stat block or that two weapon fighting does less DPR or the halflings are kind of like small humans.

But if u don't like halflings, then you do what you need to do in your own campaign to make them palatable. These forums are a good place to get feedback on campaign ideas, etc. I've seen some pretty cool halfling homebrew lore in this very thread. I notice a marked difference in reactions on this forum between "here's an idea for my campaign" and "this part of the game sucks and needs to be changed".

I think you are far overestimating the impact of LoTR on the "average customer"

I know quite a lot of people who have never watched or read LoTR. Who wouldn't know what a Bilbo even is. And they still love fantasy, and they still play DnD.
 

I think you are far overestimating the impact of LoTR on the "average customer"

I know quite a lot of people who have never watched or read LoTR. Who wouldn't know what a Bilbo even is. And they still love fantasy, and they still play DnD.
Well then our gaming circles must differ wildly. Virtually everybody I know has at least some conception of what a hobbit is. LOTR is one of the most popular books and movies of all time. Heck my daughter wanted to be a girl hobbit when I tried a gaming session at home (it failed miserably😂). But if your table doesn't know what a hobbit is, then you have even more freedom to do whatever you want to do with halflings. They won't even know what they are missing. Problem solved ☺️
 

I'm getting tired of it too.

Addressing the least salient part of a reply to respond to is a choice.

That said, your "dramatic swell" example has nothing to do with phonic compatibility, and as an example works poorly since you are framing it as a reference point for some other media rather than as an independent piece of art. Either that or you are mixing your metaphors and I've missed a connection somewhere.

The discordant harmony. The Epic Swell. These are muscial language. Now, I'm not a huge music buff, and I'm mostly familiar with these concepts in movie music, which is why I find it easier to explain them in that context.

You say "less writable math". Are you contending that there is any writable math? Or is it just that "zero" is technically "less" than any writable math but sounds way worse?

Separately who is this "we" you keep referring to? And how do you "tell" that this is the case? And why aren't all of you (plural) busy working as professional screenwriters, and musicians, etc. Why are you (plural) continuing to allow us to be subjected to all these flawed works of art when you (plural) have the formulae for their perfection?

I don't understand..is it laziness? Or are you (singular) simply overstating you're (plural) capabilities?

I never once claimed anything close to perfection. Have you actually done something like write a story or a screenplay? Up until this past summer I'd been struggling to write. I finally found a format and a style that I can devote myself to pretty consistently. I've got one sitting at 281,000 words and one at 195,000 words. For context, a novel is 50,000 to 70,000.

I still don't think they are particularly amazing, though I think they've got promise.

So, yeah, I'm working on being a novelist. It is hard. Insanely so. And even though I've avoided a lot of pitfalls I know about, there have also been a lot I probably missed. Keeping track of everything is insanely hard. So no, lack of perfection isn't laziness.

Now, onto the issue of "writable math", I know there are people who are trying to program computers to write. They also program them with software to correct grammar. Computers work on mathematical principles. They can't process something that can't be broken down into numbers at some level. That's why so many early computer scientists were mathematicians. So, yes, since a program like Grammarly exists to tell me that the computer says "this section doesn't flow well" I believe there is some level of math that can be extrapolated from that.

Do I know how? No. I'm not a computer programmer and I don't create software programs, but the underlying principles seem like they should be there.

This was a simple question, were you claiming an authoritative consensus? Since you are now having to expend the effort to research it..the correct answer was...

"No."

It was just your singular opinion, and you were speculating.

Speculating that I have seen other people make the same argument? No, that wasn't speculation. Are you assuming that I was speculating because I didn't have every single argument I've ever read saved in a bibilography? That seems like a rather poor way to go about it.

I specifically mentioned that I had not read this particular article because.... I hadn't read that particular article. It showed up when I went looking for a different thing, and fit just as well, so I figured it was decent enough to be presented to show that this was not solely my opinion.

I guess I should have been more dishonest though and let you assume I had read every single article ever written about Tolkien and DnD.

I understand. It is difficult to support how one's own particular critical take on a subject matter could constitute objective truth.

Or I figured going in circles when I've already addressed certain points wasn't really worth the extra time. I do have a life outside responding to these forums after all.

Does the individual table that chooses to make magic unsafe "simply not work"?

It doesn't work with the presentation of DnD as is. You'd have massive changes to the structures of Dungeons and Dragons. Heck, the majority of classes and subclasses in the game use magic and are balanced assuming that magic is safe and effective. You'd have to rebalance or account for a rebalance, the entire game.

So, yeah. Since to do it properly would consititute a significant rewrite of the game, I would say it really just does not work as part of Core DnD. Can someone make it work? Sure, if they either don't care about the balance issues created or are willing to put in a significant amount of work, they can rewrite the game, but as a baseline? It wouldn't work.

You haven't provided much evidence of that. Your example of "the core theme of LoTR is a battle of good vs. evil" relies on establishing some factual basis for "good" and "evil".

Given that thousands of years of philosophy and religion have failed to yield a singular basis for those determinations, I'm comfortable saying that there isn't one.

Further, if I were to say that "the core theme of LoTR is freedom vs. tyranny", how would we determine the truth or falsity of my "fact"? And, if my claim is true, does it invalidate yours?

All this is a long way to get to..."No, that is not a fact"

You want to argue that Lord of the Rings wasn't written as a battle between Good and Evil, because philosphy and religion disagree on what Good and Evil are? That is a stretch to try and discredit such a simple fact. Broad strokes of Good and Evil are generally understood by society, it is the details that religion and philosophy argue about. And has nothing to do with common understanding.

And, to address your claim, I would say that firstly you would have to show that "Freedom vs Tyranny" was not a subset of the "Good vs Evil" conflict, which would be rather difficult since those two elements are a common sign of good vs evil. Then I would say that the themes of corruption and the destruction of nature don't really fit into the framework you provided.



More more accurate analogy

Me: You can prove your claim?
You: I will prove it..Here's my opinion.
Me: Opinions are not proof
You: Why won't you debate my opinion with your opinion
Me: Because opinions are not proof.
You: But why...

Interesting how you immediately shifted away from the former analogy structure of money and price to instead just start making claims about how I am trying to make opinions be proof. Which isn't an analogy, it is you trying to directly state your version of events and color the conversation

I notice you didn't dispute this part. If it's because you agree, then yeah, I think we're done here.

I've spent the last 4 hours responding to quotes and trying to catch up. I started while I was eating lunch at around 1, and I'm just starting this post and it is a little after 5 pm.

I'm not going to be able to fully respond to every single thing, I can't devote this type of time to this much at all. So, yeah, sometimes I'm not going to respond to something. I'm doing my best over here.

Edit: Posted at 5:33, so this post took me twenty minutes to respond to.
 


Everyone knows what Game of Thrones is too, that doesn't mean we need to have random out-of-place refrences to it in the core game
If Game of Thrones had been a huge thing in fantasy in the late 1960s and early 1970s, it probably would have been integrated into the DNA of the game and not be viewed as particularly out of place now
 

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