D&D 5E Giving the arcane gish an identity.

[Xeviat]

so what is the difference between fightcleric and paladin as that will likely illuminate what we lack?

Oooof, that's kind of tough: describe "red" to someone who has never seen color. But I'll try.

A fighter/cleric is a priest who has learned some more martial skills, or a warrior who has been blessed by a domain. A paladin is a knight oath sworn to a cause. I get the vibe that a cleric us serving the deity or domain's cause, while paladins are more grounded with mortals.

So, I suppose it is the nature of the character's devotion that shapes their story. Clerics typically serve their deity, or the cause of their domain. Paladins serve their oath. There could be overlap with domains and oaths that are similar.

 

[Xeviat]

Going 50/50 fighter/cleric gives better support spells due to access to the cleric list, but more limited melee power. Paladin has the full on smite abilities, and a spell list designed for use with its weapons. Lots of smite spells along with things such as elemental weapon.

I'd say that the paladin is the front line, point blank range, 'screw your boss monster' class. While a 50/50 fighter cleric is more a second line pc, casting support spells on their allies and moving into melee to take pressure off those who need it.

I currently have a 5 battlemaster/6 forge cleric character. They're definitely not dishing out the damage of a paladin in melee, but they're a tank, working to keep the heat off allies while letting off spells like spiritual weapon and spirit guardians.

So a 50/50 fighter wizard should have similar differences to an arcane swordmage half caster.

I was coming at it more from a story side. This thread is about the need for a story to solidify the class. It's mechanics shouldn't be too hard to pull together, but without a solid story to guide it, many will continually ask "isn't thus just a fighter/wizard" or "isn't thus just a subclass".

 

[Xeviat]

so what is the difference between fightcleric and paladin as that will likely illuminate what we lack?

The biggest difference between them, though, is history. The paladin has been around long enough to have an identity, so we have an idea of its flavor now. 3E's unearthed arcana had a prestige paladin alternative. Heck, I made a Templar class that had domain choices (paladin was healing and sun) to differentiate different kinds.

The gish has existed in d&d for a while, but it's been a multiclass or a late added class for a while. It also was never tied to old (western) myths, legends, or stories. So, we should tie it to modern themes to give it a story.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Or do you prefer "legerdemain", from French léger de main ‘dexterous’, literally ‘light of hand’?

Leaving aside the association with magic, replacing a term with essentially the same term but French doesn't feel like a fix, so much as giving the Francophone world another reason to snicker.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I mean honestly, eldritch knight and bladesinger with unique spell lists would have been a perfectly good gish. I think if they did have dedicated lists, there would be a lot less complaints about wanting a gish class today. But instead they're tied to a list which is not designed around weapon attacks at all.

That ship has now sailed. WotC has shown that they are much more willing to add something than to go back and edit it. (see undying and undead warlocks).

My next closest hope is an elemental based paladin or ranger. But looking at the themes of the subclasses for those, I can't picture that ever coming.

I would not give up hope yet. They have expanded spell lists in Tasha's and could also do so, in a future supplement. Say one with a martial magical subclasses and/or magical martial subclasses a la, the Strixhaven subclasses.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

I was coming at it more from a story side. This thread is about the need for a story to solidify the class. It's mechanics shouldn't be too hard to pull together, but without a solid story to guide it, many will continually ask "isn't thus just a fighter/wizard" or "isn't thus just a subclass".

So a I'd say a paladin is a character who has gained their powers through an oath and their conviction to it. A fighter/cleric is a character who is a devout follower to their god, but is trained in battle and weapons.

Meanwhile a ranger is a wilderness traveller, survivor, and monster hunter. While a fighter/druid is a conduit and protector of nature who has a more martial focus than a typical druid.

So a wizard/fighter is one who seeks out arcane knowledge to gather and study, while being trained in armour and weapons?

It's why I like the 'guardian' idea of an arcane half caster type class. While the wizard is looking to gather and benefit from the arcane knowledge and artifacts, the gish is looking to safeguard it and stop it being abused (usually by wizards).

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I could also see the gish as the scholar warrior, someone who is martially adept because of social status or family history but a genuine scholar of the arcane when they can find the time.

 

[Vaalingrade]

We're not going to saddle this thing with 'mandatory' lore that will hamper its utility as a piece of the character building toolbox like people like to turn the warlock into are we? I keep seeing people talk about the 'story' of the class and I'm getting nervous.

 

[Undrave]

Leaving aside the association with magic, replacing a term with essentially the same term but French doesn't feel like a fix, so much as giving the Francophone world another reason to snicker.

As a French speaker, I will admit I never read 'legerdemain" as "léger de main" in my head until this thread. I read it as 'ledger domain" almost and I was wondering what the heck it meant...

We're not going to saddle this thing with 'mandatory' lore that will hamper its utility as a piece of the character building toolbox like people like to turn the warlock into are we? I keep seeing people talk about the 'story' of the class and I'm getting nervous.

We're looking for a place in the lore and something vague enough to provide multiple subclasses. You also need a reason for them to be out adventuring.

It's why I like the 'guardian' idea of an arcane half caster type class. While the wizard is looking to gather and benefit from the arcane knowledge and artifacts, the gish is looking to safeguard it and stop it being abused (usually by wizards).

If 'Guardian' is too generic what about 'Sentinel'? Recycle 'Warden'?

Sentry? Steward? Curator? Preserver? Claviger?

'Steward' or 'Curator' sounds like someone who has pledged to keep an item of power from evil hands or from being used AT ALL. Could be a cool subclass concept... Especially if they are on a quest to DESTROY said artefact.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

We're not going to saddle this thing with 'mandatory' lore that will hamper its utility as a piece of the character building toolbox like people like to turn the warlock into are we? I keep seeing people talk about the 'story' of the class and I'm getting nervous.

I mean, all classes apart from the 'core three' have a story behind them. A paladin has sworn an oath and gains their power from it. A cleric follows a god and is powered by their faith. A ranger protects civilisation from the wilderness.

Some of these are more loose from others, but they're all there. For a gish class, there needs to be more than 'this guy can swing a sword and cast a spell' as their entire class background.