D&D 5E Giving the arcane gish an identity.

Xeviat

Hero
This would lead me to lean, for an Arcane-powered warrior, to their central/base archetype to be dependent on having and using power to defeat enemies that are supernatural, defending the physcial world from the supernatural, on supernatural terms with knowledge/training/experience in supernatural means. This could be "witch-hunter/the Witcher" types of specially trained "hunters." Could be "knightly" orders of Jedi-esque Elves keeping a magically eye on the functioning and safety of sorcery and sorcerous/otherplanar threats upon the world. Could be someone trained out of personal motivations (or plain greed) to find and master various arcane items and creatures...purely for the increase of their own power/ends (akin to the iconic Magus from Pathfinder). All of these characters could be the arcane-warrior. Some "feel/look" like a paladin with arcane magic. Some feel/look like a ranger with arcane magic. Some look like "Bladesingers" or "Magi" or "Duskblades" or <insert preferred specific name here>. But they are all just different flavors of the spell-wielding weapon-trained combatant....the name/title of this class is what the real issue is. Not its 'identity," per se.

"Swordmage" is so "blah" generic. This also applies to all of the "just put two words together" nonsense: "Spellsword, Duskblade, Hexblade,"...even "Bladesinger," etc... Besides several of those are too specific in flavor/story to be a base archetype class name.

"Magus" is kinda taken.

"Gish" is just made up non-word nonsense horrible that should only ever be used in reference to githyanki...if at all.

"Guardian?" I like! But it does, rather, put a stranglehold on what the explicit presumption of this character is to be. "I don't want to be a Guardian! I want to be a magical marauder!" Now, if you were very clear that the class name was in reference to a character who is looking to "safeguard" magic/the supernatural to any cause: from keeping arcane magic and creatures in the world to eradicating it entirely [so you are the only one left with arcane knowledge and power] are all plausible for someone calling themselves a "Guardian." I guess it could work.

My own version of this class is called a Sentinel. Rangers range. Sentinels "keep watch." They are alert and paying attention [to magical things] and "watching"...but are they watching to defend magic in the world? Sure. Alert to magical goings-on for their own purposes/selfish ends? Yup, that too. Paying attention/learning about magic to stop its encroachment or possible destruction of the world? Could be that too. Are they the "sacred" order of magical [arcane] archers from the high-elf kingdom responsible for the direct protection of the elfin sorcerers council? Sure are! Are they medium armor-wearing "battlemages" -more interested in flinging spells than swordplay, but they still carry/know what to do with a sword if needed- from the nation of the Archmagus Imperialis? Yup, them too.

So, the concept/identity is simply: a weapon-trained combat-capable (melee and/or ranged!) warrior who knows arcane spells, possesses arcane knowledge, and expertise encountering/dealing with/defeating "arcane creatures" and magical threats.

The problem is that the Fighter/Mage -from D&D's incarnation- has never HAD its own base class. It doesn't have a "name."

Say "Ranger" and all D&D (and any fantasy RPGers, computer and table) know what/who you're talking about. NOW, those imaginings can be wildly different depending on one's age, game, style preferences, all kinds of things. But everyone will have some image/idea, automatically, of what "Ranger" means. Same with Paladin. Same with Bard, and so on. For "Fighter/Mage" character concept...we don't and have never had a convenient 'Label" like that.

Basically, the solution is, D&D developers need to PICK something and just stick to it. Just use it over and over and over until it is just an assumed part of D&D/fantasy game-play. ...but, preferably, not something "hokey" like "Spellsword" or "Swordmage."

"One who fights arcane threats" is a theme that a class could be based around. The Ranger has strong themes of monster hunting, but being a mage hunter, witch hunter, or a guardian of magical secrets and mage orders, we're starting to get a theme.

Thanks for bringing the discussion back around.
 

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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
"One who fights arcane threats" is a theme that a class could be based around. The Ranger has strong themes of monster hunting, but being a mage hunter, witch hunter, or a guardian of magical secrets and mage orders, we're starting to get a theme.

Thanks for bringing the discussion back around.
That was a paragon path for Swordmages btw. And likely one of the Cleric themes at some point (See Vampire Hunters with holy symbols and the like)
 

ECMO3

Hero
...is mostly the feats talking, not the EK talking. You're conflating "a character who spent 2 feats to do a thing" with "a character's baseline capabilities." The two aren't the same, and you'll get divergent results if you act as though they are. Same applies to GWF+Fey Touched. If sinking two feats (out of the maximum 9 you can possibly have, if you're a 19th-level Fighter and got a feat from your race) didn't make you do fairly well at the core function those feats provide....then those feats would be really bad feats, and you shouldn't have taken them.
The fighter has an ASI at 4th and 6th level, meaning you should already be at 20 strength before your 8th level ASI, so it is take a feat at 8th level or take an ASI in abilities that are less relevant.

But even if we assume no feats, an 11th level eldritch knight using a greatsword and NOT using GWM is doing 4d6+4d8+10+int total damage on GFB+BA attack, and he probably has an 18 intelligence since he did not take a feat at 8th level! If he has GWF (which is a fighting style available to all fighters) that is an average of 54 DPR without using a single limited use ability, it is 90 if he uses Action Surge

An 11th level dueling eldritch knight going sword and board with shadow blade/GFB and a BA attack is doing 8d8+14+int or 14d8+21+intx2 using action surge. Again assuming an 18 int since he did not take any feats and he is doing an average of 54DPR and 92DPR using action surge. He is doing this while also getting advantage in darkness or dim light.

Those numbers account for rerolling 1s and 2s for the GWF and for crits for both characters but they assume no feats at all.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The fighter has an ASI at 4th and 6th level, meaning you should already be at 20 strength before your 8th level ASI, so it is take a feat at 8th level or take an ASI in abilities that are less relevant.
The original reference was to "weapon-magic?" stylistically action surge certainly makes a fighter periodically stronger but is just a fighter hitting it again (and restricted from being a cantrip or am I recalling wrong) not particularly magical in my opinion.
 

ECMO3

Hero
The original reference was to "weapon-magic?" stylistically action surge certainly makes a fighter periodically stronger but is just a fighter hitting it again (and restricted from being a cantrip or am I recalling wrong) not particularly magical in my opinion.
You are recalling wrong. For the guy with the greatsword it is using the cast a spell action and Green Flame Balde which is "weapon magic". That is where the damage for both the attack and the action surge are coming from. On AS you are doing 4d6+8d8+10+2Xint "weapon magic" using the cast a spell action and the cast a spell actions surge action and then you are doing another 2d6+5 in bonus action "attack" damage using the war magic ability.

For the guy with shadow blade the entire thing is weapon magic as the weapon he is using itself is magic, but again here it is using a cast a spell action with most of the damage dice coming from the cantrip (twice with AS) and a bonus action war magic attack with the shadowblade.
 
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Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
Subclass only please.

A mage hunter focus is going to run afoul of the problem of limiting what campaigns the class can be worthwhile in.
That is precisely why I did not bake that identity into my Arcknight class, and had a subclass (called the "Study of the Eldritch Nullifier") that focused on draining the life and magic from enemies (focusing on necrotic damage, and dispel magic/counterspell). However, I did give the whole class a level 14 feature called "Spell Siphon" where it could steal spell slots from enemies casters (anyone with spell slots, so Bards, Clerics, Druids, etc).
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
You are recalling wrong.
Yes that is correct I was recalling this "You cannot cast two cantrips during one action. "

For the guy with the greatsword it is using the cast a spell action and Green Flame Balde which is "weapon magic".
"offensive weapon-magic options" OK then we really see you gave what you considered 3 options green flame blade and one and you then wait till what level 7/8? and get "shadowblade" because it can come from another non preferred school of magic? However that is a concentration spell? regardless of when you get it is this recommended for a melee combatant? Also you mentioned fey touched to take Hex but basically that means you are not using a EK feature as hex is not really part of the EK.

That really seems like quite limited options to me.
 
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TheOneGargoyle

Explorer
"One who fights arcane threats" is a theme that a class could be based around. The Ranger has strong themes of monster hunting, but being a mage hunter, witch hunter, or a guardian of magical secrets and mage orders, we're starting to get a theme.

Thanks for bringing the discussion back around.
Interesting, I must admit I always thought of the Gish / stabnerd identity was using magic to make one better at weapon fighting, but you're right, fighting against magic could also be a part of that concept.

Example : a magic school would need guards, and it would be wise to teach those guards some magic, because it's likely that threats to the school would be magical, and guards without any magic would be easily overcome by them. Hence stabnerd guards would be more effective in this situation, would use magic to improve their combat capabilities, and would likely be trained specifically in combating magical threats.

I like it.
 

TheOneGargoyle

Explorer
As a conceptual question, do people see this class as focusing on using a single weapon (one or two-handed), or do they think that dual-wielding (and channelling spells through both weapons) has a place in it?
My preference I think is that weapon & armour choices would be influenced by the subclass.

Eg.
  • Subclass similar to / inspired by OD&D Elf race - lightly armoured (proper elven chain anyone?), long sword + short sword
  • Subclass similar to / inspired by 4e Assault Sword mage - lightly armoured, 2H Sword
  • Subclass similar to / inspired by Jedi - unarmoured (improved mage armour?), Sunblade / radiant version of shadowblade / lightsaber
  • Subclass similar to / inspired by dusk blade - medium or (potentially at higher levels) heavy armour, any weapons
  • Subclass similar to / inspired by Shielding Swordmage - light or medium armour, 1H weapon + magical warding (magical shield effect from one empty hand)
  • Subclass similar to / inspired by The Witcher - no armour (superhuman stats & pure skill baby!), any weapon

Etc...

Whatcha think?
 

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