D&D 5E Giving the arcane gish an identity.

[doctorbadwolf]

A year or so back @doctorbadwolf and I worked on a full Assassin class for 5e. The mechanics here are not pertinent for a Gish, but the themes of the sublcass might be cool idea for a Swordmage:

Imagine guilds of swordmage basing their arcane-fighting-style on a specific monster from D&D tradition:

• The Swordmage of the Displacer Beast Guild are all about teleporting, stealth and movement
• The Swordmage of the Gorgon Guild use the resiliences of stone magic and acid to burn the foes that hit them or their ally.
• The Phoenix guild use fire or radiant magic and can absorb those element to heal themselves.
• The Troll Guild use mighty regeneration spells to be the last on standing in any battles.

So they dont hunt the creatures, they become scholars and protectors of those magical creatures. Most of the time D&d classes are about how you kill magic creatures; I think it could be fun to have a class that is more about protecting the inherent magic of the many settings of D&D.

That is very cool. I’ve been struggling with the subclass identity of the swordmage, beyond a couple options, and this might do it.

Ive also been thinking about broadening the assassin to include a little more room for like, lightly armored light weapon using lethal bastards.

 

[Minigiant]

• I slice through the air before me and a cut breaks open on my enemy ignoring their armor.
• I suspend my blade in the passageway and it becomes a wall of blades blocking passage to all but the most insanely persevering. (returning to me when I will it or after a time)
• I slash my blade through an incoming attack spell or one enchanting someone and its energy disperses.
• I spin my blade and it hypnotizes and confuses an enemy who attacks there own ally or lurches where I want them to.
• I conjure ghostly images of myself from a parallel time which can actually slice and dice or at least their weapons are solid enough to.
• I hurl the sword and it bounds from enemy to enemy its deadly dance guided by my mind,
• I race across the battlefield and where my blade slices the ground heaves up in a wall of spikes and crystals.... or a less permanent wall of fire springs in the blades path through the air.
• I blink in the way of an attack which would surely kill my ally taking it on myself in a less deadly form.
• My hurled sword it bursts into shards which attack each in a cloud then re-coalesces in my hand
• I cut a hole in reality and dive through it appearing next to my enemy and an ally quickly joins my traversal.
• I drag an enemy painfully to me through a dimensional rift I create

You can't do that in 5e because 5e made it too easy for one class snag spells of another's list.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

You can't do that in 5e because 5e made it too easy for one class snag spells of another's list.

Most of those are spells on another class' list.

 

[TheOneGargoyle]

So Subclasses would come online at 1st?

It doesn't have to, there is already a precedent for a subclass which comes online later and changes weapon usage (bladesinger).

That said there is a also precedent for subclasses coming online at 1st level when it's core to the class concept (cleric). But I don't think the Swordmage subclass is so concept defining that it has to come on at L1 like clerics is it ?

Also, artificer already breaks one of the previous class design guidelines which is that half casters don't get Spellcasting until L2 and don't get cantrips or rituals at all. So if the subclass came on at L2 or even 3 they'll already be a bona fide magic user at L1, even without their subclass.

Can anyone see a need to have it come online at L1?

 

[TheOneGargoyle]

Blinking/tactical teleportation in combat was a major feature of Swordmages

Certainly for Assault Swordmages it was, yes. And to a lesser extent for others types too.

I wasn't meaning to imply that the subclass would only influence weapon types and nothing else. I absolutely would want the subclasses to also add / modify other mechanics to create the flavour of that appropriate play style too.

I loved the aegis of the Swordmages. But a Jedi would need different things like force jump & force push strike and so on.

 

[TheOneGargoyle]

Most of those are spells on another class' list.

LOL touche!

 

[Tinker-TDC]

It doesn't have to, there is already a precedent for a subclass which comes online later and changes weapon usage (bladesinger).

That said there is a also precedent for subclasses coming online at 1st level when it's core to the class concept (cleric). But I don't think the Swordmage subclass is so concept defining that it has to come on at L1 like clerics is it ?

Also, artificer already breaks one of the previous class design guidelines which is that half casters don't get Spellcasting until L2 and don't get cantrips or rituals at all. So if the subclass came on at L2 or even 3 they'll already be a bona fide magic user at L1, even without their subclass.

Can anyone see a need to have it come online at L1?

I don't think there's a need for it as much as a Cleric or Warlock, but the general lack of consensus on what exactly a Swordmage should BE seems a pretty good reason for a level 1 subclass to point it in a direction. If some subclasses have different armor calculations or proficiencies then I do think it should be at level 1 because that tends to be the level where you get your gear and I am personally against a later-level swap-out being required to play the concept.

 

[TheOneGargoyle]

I don't think there's a need for it as much as a Cleric or Warlock, but the general lack of consensus on what exactly a Swordmage should BE seems a pretty good reason for a level 1 subclass to point it in a direction. If some subclasses have different armor calculations or proficiencies then I do think it should be at level 1 because that tends to be the level where you get your gear and I am personally against a later-level swap-out being required to play the concept.

You could be right there.

What about we assemble a starting list of the archetypes we need and see what that looks like?

My initial thoughts are :

• OD&D Elf race
• 4e Assault Swordmage
• 4e Shielding Swordmage
• Jedi (Knight only? Consular? Sentinel?)
• 3.5e dusk blade
• The Witcher (?)
• Bladesinger (?)
• Githyanki Gish (?)
• Wuxia Sword Saint (?)

What would you add or subtract from that list?

 

[cbwjm]

I'd add death knight to the list, it's a fairly well known archetype of the warrior/wizard due to WoW. Some might prefer it to be its own class or a paladin subclass but I think it works well as a subclass for the warrior/wizard.

I'm also a fan of them getting their subclass at level 1, especially if the subclasses have a lot of thematic weight.

 

[Minigiant]

I'd add death knight to the list, it's a fairly well known archetype of the warrior/wizard due to WoW. Some might prefer it to be its own class or a paladin subclass but I think it works well as a subclass for the warrior/wizard.

I'm also a fan of them getting their subclass at level 1, especially if the subclasses have a lot of thematic weight.

The divine death knight and the arcane death knight are two different concepts.