D&D General The Problem with Evil or what if we don't use alignments?

[Maxperson]

And I'd say that alignment is bollocks and it is unhelpful to try to force characters into it.

And for you it apparently is. That doesn't apply to the rest of us. Oh, and we don't "force" characters into it.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Not all Demons are the same. Grazz't is also different than normal demons. The differentiation is chaos and order(law), not wants the world to burn and doesn't want the world to burn.

So again the alignment didn't tell us anything useful. Great.

 

[Maxperson]

So again the alignment didn't tell us anything useful. Great.

No. It doesn't tell YOU anything useful. So don't use it.

 

[Yaarel]

The relationship of Apprentice and Master is lawful. One serves the other faithfully, but is expected to eventually kill and replace him. One chaotic rule doesn't make it a chaotic relationship. Vader also showed personal loyalty to those who served well under him and treated them fairly well. He is LE through and through.

In the case of the Sith specifically, I am unsure the relationship is Lawful. Strictly, they are each others competitors. The temporary acquiescence of the Sith apprentice is useful to further the influence of the Master. But the Master can kill an apprentice who no longer appears useful. Moreover, the relationship is a one-on-one relationship, which is individualistic.

The Sith tradition itself seems individualistic in its Evil. Whence a Chaotic philosophy.

Yet, in the case Darth Vader and Palpatine, both of them are interested in running an empire, which is definitely a Lawful ambition.

Neutral Evil mixes Chaotic and Lawful.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

In the case of the Sith specifically, I am unsure the relationship is Lawful. Strictly, they are each others competitors. The temporary acquiescence of the Sith apprentice is useful to further the influence of the Master. But the Master can kill an apprentice who no longer appears useful. Moreover, the relationship is a one-on-one relationship, which is individualistic.

The Sith tradition itself seems individualistic in its Evil. Whence a Chaotic philosophy.

Yet, in the case Darth Vader and Palpatine, both of them are interested in running an empire, which is definitely a Lawful ambition.

Neutral Evil mixes Chaotic and Lawful.

You're having this disagreement because lawful and chaotic are not coherent concepts.

 

[Yaarel]

But why cannot you just say the bolded part?

Because if Vader is Chaotic Evil, but somehow furthering an Empire, then I would read that information as him being internally conflicted.

Saying Vader is Neutral Evil, helps me get a clear sense of where he is at with regard to his conflictive behaviors.

 

[Maxperson]

In the case of the Sith specifically, I am unsure the relationship is Lawful. Strictly, they are each others competitors. The temporary acquiescence of the Sith apprentice is useful to further the influence of the Master. But the Master can kill an apprentice who no longer appears useful. Moreover, the relationship is a one-on-one relationship, which is individualistic.

The Sith tradition itself seems individualistic in its Evil. Whence a Chaotic philosophy.

Yet, in the case Darth Vader and Palpatine, both of them are interested in running an empire, which is definitely a Lawful ambition.

Neutral Evil mixes Chaotic and Lawful.

It doesn't work that way, though. Neutral evil is evil for the sake of evil. Alignment isn't a straightjacket, so the two LE Sith can have chaotic tendencies and still be LE. Nobody falls completely within 1 or even 2 alignments. It's where they primarily sit that decided alignment, and both are primarily lawful and orderly about how they go about things and what they want to accomplish.

 

[Yaarel]

You're having this disagreement because lawful and chaotic are not coherent concepts.

Heh, I agree, the official descriptions are confused, especially when assuming literal "laws" and "personal code".

But my understanding of the L and C alignments as group versus individual, is reasonably disambiguous.

 

[Maxperson]

You're having this disagreement because lawful and chaotic are not coherent concepts.

No. We're having a disagreement, because personalities are complex, and a detailed character will not fall within a single alignment. However, when running generic NPC/Monster #47626, alignment more than suffices to help me run it.

 

[Yaarel]

It doesn't work that way, though. Neutral evil is evil for the sake of evil. Alignment isn't a straightjacket, so the two LE Sith can have chaotic tendencies and still be LE. Nobody falls completely within 1 or even 2 alignments. It's where they primarily sit that decided alignment, and both are primarily lawful and orderly about how they go about things and what they want to accomplish.

I dont think anyone does something "for the sake of Evil".

I feel everyone does something for the sake of their own self-interest.

Good and Evil depend on whether someone helps someone elses self interest, and at what price.

Chaos and Law depend on who the "self" is: me or us.