D&D General The Problem with Evil or what if we don't use alignments?

[Crimson Longinus]

I missed that debate but it is a good question.

On the one hand, the relationship of Darth Vader to his Sith mentor is Chaotic Evil.

On the other hand, the relationship of Darth Vader to the Empire is Lawful Evil.

I would probably say he is Neutral Evil.

And I'd say that alignment is bollocks and it is unhelpful to try to force characters into it.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

"Group" means the creature self-identifies with the group. There is a sense that if the group survives, the creature in some sense will also survive. Thus a Lawful Evil creature can self-sacrifice to ensure that the group survives.

A reallife example is racism is LE. A person self-identifies with the status of the group, but the group as a whole is predatory against other groups.

This is why the Drow seem Neutral Evil to me. They are absolutely group-oriented (L) − Lolth above all else. But they betray each other which is individualistic (C).

I don't think this particularly helpful definition though. If 'me and my dog' can be the group then the difference between lawful and chaotic is pretty pointless.

 

[Yaarel]

And I'd say that alignment is bollocks and it is unhelpful to try to force characters into it.

I find alignment helpful. Darth Vader is a unique individual, and merits an alignment along with ideal and flaw.

If the alignment says he is NE, being individualistic within his esoteric tradition but imperialistic for his public appearance, that says alot to me about where he stands, and how to use him in various encounters.

 

[Cadence]

And I'd say that alignment is bollocks and it is unhelpful to try to force characters into it.

What alignment is bad wrong funning people about what they find helpful? ;-)

Even 1e allowed for "tendencies" in describing one's alignment, didn't it?

 

[Yaarel]

I don't think this particularly helpful definition though. If 'me and my dog' can be the group then the difference between lawful and chaotic is pretty pointless.

Dogs are pack animals, and I see them leaning toward Lawful behavior, despite being Unaligned in the sense of not really responsible for their actions.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Yeah, but I'd argue that Orcus is the face of demonic evil in D&D.

I did specify demon QUEEN, but if you want to argue Zuggtmoy, that is a separate issue.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Have you seen the Drow? She sows chaos in her people and expects power and might to rule, as well as cruelty.

Notably, she DOESN’T want the world to burn, which was the initial point raised as distinguishing Devils from Demons.

 

[Maxperson]

I missed that debate but it is a good question.

On the one hand, the relationship of Darth Vader to his Sith mentor is Chaotic Evil.

On the other hand, the relationship of Darth Vader to the Empire is Lawful Evil.

I would probably say he is Neutral Evil.

The relationship of Apprentice and Master is lawful. One serves the other faithfully, but is expected to eventually kill and replace him. One chaotic rule doesn't make it a chaotic relationship. Vader also showed personal loyalty to those who served well under him and treated them fairly well. He is LE through and through.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I find alignment helpful. Darth Vader is a unique individual, and merits an alignment along with ideal and flaw.

If the alignment says he is NE, being individualistic within his esoteric tradition but imperialistic for his public appearance, that says alot to me about where he stands, and how to use him in various encounters.

But why cannot you just say the bolded part? What did you need the alignment for? And if you already didn't know this character, you wouldn't conclude it from Neutral Evil. Or you might, but you might as well conclude something completely different. So I really don't understand what the alignment is actually telling us here, what additional value are we getting from it.

 

[Maxperson]

Notably, she DOESN’T want the world to burn, which was the initial point raised as distinguishing Devils from Demons.

Not all Demons are the same. Grazz't is also different than normal demons. The differentiation is chaos and order(law), not wants the world to burn and doesn't want the world to burn.