D&D General Why defend railroading?

Still, I will totally defend a GM who goes railroading out of frustration (or sheer panic!) because her players aren't following the story
The story isn't something the DM writes ahead of time and doles out to the players. The story is what emerges from the people at the table engaging with the game. DM + players + actual play = story.
A good GM eventually learns not to have specific bottlenecks, like the proverbial hidden door you MUST find to continue, and be ready to allow many (even unexpected) paths towards victory, as well as paths to failure, or different outcomes in general. But that takes years to learn! Certainly I would not blame a GM who bought a 50$ adventure to actually want to play out at least a good chunk of it, and if a bit of railroading is needed to keep going, so be it.
It only takes years to learn if you DM in a vacuum. That's what the community is for. Learning how to avoid certain things and how to do other things better.
 

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The story isn't something the DM writes ahead of time and doles out to the players. The story is what emerges from the people at the table engaging with the game. DM + players + actual play = story.

That's often called "emergent story" to distinguish it from other definitions of story as applied to RPGs.
It only takes years to learn if you DM in a vacuum. That's what the community is for. Learning how to avoid certain things and how to do other things better.
Lots of people don't have large communities near them. And many probably run into unpleasant help online.
 

It feels like you keep saying "doesn't have any" but mean "has any taken away at all".

Deciding an ogre will be on the path still feels like it leaves lots of choices.
Maybe. But the chances of those also being illusory choices is greater.
Is this ok for avoiding your definition? "The two roads to the village each have an Ogre showing up later today and then daily for a week until one of them meets a bad end. In that case the other one will skedaddle when his buddy doesn't show up in the evening. After a week they both move to greener pastures."?
There’s no interaction with the PCs so none of their choices are rendered moot.
 

That's often called "emergent story" to distinguish it from other definitions of story as applied to RPGs.

Lots of people don't have large communities near them. And many probably run into unpleasant help online.
Well, it’s no wonder when we can’t even have a working definition of “role-playing game” or “railroading” because someone might not like it.
 

To quote you, "This, right here, is wild."

Which is it? It can't be both. If you mean illusory in the sense that they're not real in the meatspace sense of real, then yes, they're illusory by dint of them being choices in an elf game. If you mean illusory in the sense of them not having meaning or consequence in the game, then they're clearly contradictory statements.
The answer is: Both. I get that you think it "Can't Be" but, yeah. It is.

Because our Consequences are, likewise, illusory. Not just in the sense of Meatspace (In which all of our choices are -also- illusory and predetermined by the starting state of the Universe at a time no later than the Big Bang) but in the space of the game itself. Any consequence is made up by the DM at the time they decide the Consequence must occur. Oh, they might have a list of options written somewhere, or try to envison the circumstances and narrate something based on a character's explicit actions... But those consequences have no more weight than any illusory choice.

Especially Narratively. Which is to say that Choice and Consequence are equally important in the narrative, because they're both just as illusory.
It becomes a shell game if the DM moves things around so that the players' choices don't matter.
I had a big response for this, but I'm gonna move it down to a different part of the quote 'cause you FINALLY hit on an important bit.
So it's bad when no matter what you do the DM forces their predetermined story on the players? Got it.
Ehhhhh... You've taken this one out of context.
So now it's perfectly fine when no matter what you do the DM forces their predetermined story on the players? That's confused.
You took this one out of context, too. They both go -together- to try and express the next little bit where you finally get to it:
It's only a question of scale between Quantum Ogres and the Dead Princess. Both remove meaningful, consequential choice from the players.
Scale.

If you're moving around an Ogre and it's not specifically an "We're avoiding the Ogre" situation then it doesn't matter whether they choose the left path or the right path as long as where the left and right path go (a dead end versus to the exit, for an example) still hold true. They've made a choice and it has consequences and who -really- cares where the ogre is?

Now if it's specifically a "We're avoiding the ogre and trying to get to the exit" situation and they pick the way out after listening at the doors and then you swap the exit and the ogre room to make sure they have failed, then yeah. That's pretty crappy of you as a DM.

Nothing in reality exists as a binary. It's all a matter of degrees and scales, of levels and depths. Trying to present ANY illusion of choice as automatically wrong and theft and bad and GRRR YOU BAD DM WASTE PREP TIME Gnashing of Teeth Tearing of Hair...

Just doesn't really work. Well. To quote you: "To you, Perhaps."

But that kinda abject binary, which I kinda called out from my first post and your positively and negatively charged speech, is gonna result in literally nothing in any discussion resulting in any kind of answer to your initial question. There is no "Good Enough" answer.
The problem is that the DM has forgotten that it's a collaborative storytelling game. If the player doesn't want to engage with those hooks, the DM should talk to the player and design better hooks.
Yeeeeeah... see... that kind of statement which presumes that there are no bad actors among the playerbase of D&D. And it's -hilarious-. I've had at least a dozen players, that I can -remember-, who decided to throw hissy fits or play counter to the story and situations they were in just to be contrarian. Most of them with CN or CG on their character sheets.

"It must always be the DM's fault!" says a lot, here.
 

Any advocates of railroading willing to explain why it’s good to do?

We don't actually need to do that.

We need to remind folks that OneTrueWayism is not a good thing, and that arguments against railroading are OneTrueWayisms. We need to remind people to allow folks to like what they like, to try various ways of doing things, and not try to tell others they are having BadWrongFun.
 

We have working definitions of common phrases, its just that they are not specific enough for you apparently. Your definitions solidly fit your preferences and exclude others. Gatekeeping is a hallmark of the toxic and regressive elements of the hobby. Just sayin.
Yeah. I was going to attempt to engage but his responses are essentially "his one true way" and everything else is wrong or bad. Granted, he's not coming right out and saying that but when he states things like " Story isnt X, Story is Y (the way I do it)" It's time to walk away from the discussion.
Because nothing short of "I AGREE with you" is going to bear any "productive" fruit.

I've run modules and pre-written adventures since I was 12. The way I've run them then in relation to the way I run them now is very different and has a lot to do with setting and establishing expectations right at the outset so there's very little confusion as to what will be happening at the gaming table.

Within the scope and story of the adventure, I'm running the PC's can do pretty much anything they want. If I'm running an adventure where there's a goblin attack and the PCs instead of going to wipe out the goblin tribe attempt to treat with their leaders to find out why the attack happened? Even if it's not part of the written adventure I make room for that possibility for them whereas when I was 12 I eliminated that possibility because it wasn't in the adventure. The very notion that if I'd prepared for that eventuality I would somehow be removing player agency via railroading seems like the reachiest of reaches to me.
 

Yeeeeeah... see... that kind of statement which presumes that there are no bad actors among the playerbase of D&D. And it's -hilarious-. I've had at least a dozen players, that I can -remember-, who decided to throw hissy fits or play counter to the story and situations they were in just to be contrarian. Most of them with CN or CG on their character sheets.

"It must always be the DM's fault!" says a lot, here.
THIS.
 

Oh, this thread again. It took surprisingly many pages until we got to the terrible thought crime of illusionism. Seriously, whether the ogres were always meant to be on one path, were moved, were made up on the spot or were in some vague state between these is information that only exists in the GM's noggin and will not affect the experience of the players one bit.
 
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Maybe. But the chances of those also being illusory choices is greater.

Why would they be much different? Don't most DMs have the choices and rolls of the characters in combat matter?

There’s no interaction with the PCs so none of their choices are rendered moot.

Does it matter if the DM only phrased it that way because (1) they wanted to avoid charges of railroading and (2) they knew the players were almost surely going to pick a road and wanted to be sure they had to fight one to continue... but didn't want them to run into a second one because that seems like a lot of Ogres in the area?
 

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