D&D 5E Dwarves Could Use A Rethink

[Ixal]

what if we went back to origins and rethought what a Dwarf can be?

Are you sure the origin of D&D dwarves (and I guess Lotr ones) are Norse tales and not Grimm's Fairy Tales (Snow White) where, most likely the inspiration for dwarves were child laborers working in mines?

 

[Bolares]

here we go again... se you all in 15 pages

 

[TheSword]

Hey! Don’t get me wrong, Dwarves are cool. But…they’re at risk of getting a bit stale in D&D.

what if we went back to origins and rethought what a Dwarf can be?

For instance, and mind this ain’t a scholarly source because this ain’t an academic discussion, this article goes into just how ambiguous stories about dwarves are in Norse myth. Dwarves in Norse Mythology

Now I’ve done a decent amount of research on this topic over the years, myself, and yeah, Ivaldi is never said to fear the sun, nor the Bricings, nor Gandalfr, nor Alberich IIRC, nor the 4 who hold up the sky, etc, and none of them are described as short, either.

So perhaps a line of dwarves, Dvalin’s kin, fear the sun, while others simply live underground, and still others live in the forest.

What do Norse dwarves have in common?

Well, they’re very magical, for one.

For another they are excellent craftsfolk.

They seem to tend not to like outsiders much to me, and they are almost certainly related to elves. Too many of thier names have variants of alfar in them to be otherwise.

Okay, so this sounds more like gnomes than dwarves in a lot of ways, but let’s roll with it. How can we make more magical dwarfs while keeping them dwarfy?

Anyone here knowledgeable about dwarves from other cultures, or have some really interesting tales on them?

Can you expand a bit more on what you think is stale about dwarves? It might suggest new ways of thinking about them.

Otherwise It might just a general fact of them being classic and oft parodied. Change for changes sake.

My preference is to lean into the cultural elements of dwarvishness as is done in the Warhammer world and to a lesser extent the witcher. Ultra conservative, superior, and yet capable of amazing quality workmanship, honed over hundreds of years. With dwarves separated from the clan going wild pretty quickly. Which highlights the importance of clan and permanence.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Can you expand a bit more on what you think is stale about dwarves? It might suggest new ways of thinking about them.

Otherwise It might just a general fact of them being classic and oft parodied. Change for changes sake.

My preference is to lean into the cultural elements of dwarvishness as is done in the Warhammer world and to a lesser extent the witcher. Ultra conservative, superior, and yet capable of amazing quality workmanship, honed over hundreds of years. With dwarves separated from the clan going wild pretty quickly. Which highlights the importance of clan and permanence.

And my preference is made pretty clear in the OP. I appreciate the list of different takes and the like in this thread, but I’m most interested in the discussion of dwarves that are more inspired by myth and folk lore.

 

[TheSword]

And my preference is made pretty clear in the OP. I appreciate the list of different takes and the like in this thread, but I’m most interested in the discussion of dwarves that are more inspired by myth and folk lore.

That’s clearer.

I think magic through permanent means is something that is intrinsically dwarvish. Perhaps bringing rune craft to the fore. I remember it seeing Dvalinn and Alviss in American Gods and the runes being their form of magic.

Perhaps skills with glyphs symbols and runes to implement effects. Some simple utility like strengthening or resistance others with more esoteric effects. It would make for a good dwarves subclass of wizard.

Perhaps all Dwarves could have the ability to see runes (or spells designated as runes) and perhaps even use minor versions. I’m also very interested in the idea of non-spell based craftsmanship of magical items.

 

[dave2008]

Hey! Don’t get me wrong, Dwarves are cool. But…they’re at risk of getting a bit stale in D&D.

what if we went back to origins and rethought what a Dwarf can be?

For instance, and mind this ain’t a scholarly source because this ain’t an academic discussion, this article goes into just how ambiguous stories about dwarves are in Norse myth. Dwarves in Norse Mythology

Now I’ve done a decent amount of research on this topic over the years, myself, and yeah, Ivaldi is never said to fear the sun, nor the Bricings, nor Gandalfr, nor Alberich IIRC, nor the 4 who hold up the sky, etc, and none of them are described as short, either.

So perhaps a line of dwarves, Dvalin’s kin, fear the sun, while others simply live underground, and still others live in the forest.

What do Norse dwarves have in common?

Well, they’re very magical, for one.

For another they are excellent craftsfolk.

They seem to tend not to like outsiders much to me, and they are almost certainly related to elves. Too many of thier names have variants of alfar in them to be otherwise.

Okay, so this sounds more like gnomes than dwarves in a lot of ways, but let’s roll with it. How can we make more magical dwarfs while keeping them dwarfy?

Anyone here knowledgeable about dwarves from other cultures, or have some really interesting tales on them?

Why do you (we) describe the Norse peoples of legend as "dwarves?" Where does the word "dwarf" come from? Is it a Norse word?

 

[Bolares]

One place that dwarves really needed a rethink was Eberron. They had very little of interest for player characters. The reflavor they got in Rising and Exploring Eberron was great.

 

[dave2008]

And my preference is made pretty clear in the OP. I appreciate the list of different takes and the like in this thread, but I’m most interested in the discussion of dwarves that are more inspired by myth and folk lore.

You have only mentioned Norse mythology. Are those even really dwarves though? Should we be looking at other mythologies?

 

[Dausuul]

Are you sure the origin of D&D dwarves (and I guess Lotr ones) are Norse tales and not Grimm's Fairy Tales (Snow White) where, most likely the inspiration for dwarves were child laborers working in mines?

I am quite certain the origin of D&D dwarves is "The Lord of the Rings," full stop. Ditto elves, ditto halflings--who were even called "hobbits" in their original form, before the Tolkien estate sent them a C&D--ditto orcs. Gygax and Arneson shoved them all in because people wanted Tolkien stuff in their fantasy game. Nothing more complicated than that.

As for Tolkien's inspirations, he drew on a wide range of sources, including fairy tales and Norse myth. He also modeled much of their culture on the Jewish diaspora in medieval Europe. (This led him into anti-Semitic stereotypes at times--I have no doubt it wasn't intended, but there's at least one passage in "The Hobbit" that is hard to read without cringing once you have that connection in mind.)

I quite like the idea of disentangling all that source material and exploring the roots of it. There's no reason to remain locked into Tolkien's particular vision for dwarves. At the same time, I would give the "new dwarves" a new name, maybe borrowing a term directly from the source material--my experience has been that trying to change the lore of the core races leads to a constant battle against the players' deeply-ingrained expectations of What A Dwarf Is.

 

[CapnZapp]

Hey! Don’t get me wrong, Dwarves are cool. But…they’re at risk of getting a bit stale in D&D.

I don't know if the following is what you had in mind.

The main reason Dwarves have lost in popularity is that D&D5 has unthinkingly made range and movement too cheap.

Before 5E you had to pay a hefty price to gain high speed (such as poor armor) or good range (such as middling damage).

I've predicted a thread like that for years, because 5E lost sight of exactly how disadvantageous a slow Speed really is.

There's just no saving the Dwarf from a minmax angle.

5E basically reinforces Peter Jackson's notion that a dwarf is comedic relief rather than the heavy battle tank Tolkien intended them as.

The fix is to disallow ranged fire from adding an ability score, to make it far harder to leave melee range, and far more expensive (build-wise) to gain a faster Speed than 35 at most.

Also to not grant forest races like Elves true Darkvision.

This can most simply be summarized as undoing pretty much every relaxed or removed limitation in these areas when you compare 5E to 3E. There's more of them than you probably realize unless you're a true grognard. Like a dozen(!) or more.

Individually they're small things that make little difference.

Together however... As I said, I predicted this already soon after 5E's publication!