D&D 5E Candlekeep Mysteries: Mazfroth’s Mighty Digressions ethics issues

[Mort]

I mean, by the way people are talking here, why aren't the the ones that brought a dangerous weapon and sold it to Candlekeep at all culpable?

Well, for one, they were held accountable even though they were a victim.

If I buy a loaded gun and then sell that loaded gun to someone else, I'm culpable as well, no? After all, I didn't bother checking that it was real before I sold it. Yet, there is no sense whatsoever that those that brought the books into Candlekeep are being held to any sort of responsiblity other than the fact that the book they used to gain entrance isn't there anymore.

This is where reasonableness comes in.

If I buy a gun and give /sell it to someone, the gun goes off and shoots someone (on its own) because I didn't check it? There's a chance I might be held liable (depending on applicable law) because a reasonable person would assume a gun is dangerous.

But a book? If I sell it to someone and they use it as a club to bludgeon someone to death, am I, the seller, liable? Likely not, no reasonable person would think the book is dangerous as a bludgeon - at least more dangerous than a typical heavy item.

Now this is D&D though. So let's say the book has explosive runes which then killed /injured someone. Then liability? Maybe. Or poisoned ink, likely no liability, but maybe?

This could get a bit in the weeds.

The actual adventure? The group must decide on a course of action and go with it, then roll with whatever happens.

Frankly, I like the multiple outcomes that could result from this scenario.

 

[Oofta]

I've been busy and only skimmed the mod. As far as I am concerned the people selling the books are guilty of fraud and attempted homicide. You could potentially argue for manslaughter, I think it's murder because they knew they were selling a dangerous creature under false pretenses and don't care.

Now maybe when you DM that's not a crime. In my campaign it is. That's all, and I'm done discussing this.

 

[Hussar]

Frankly, I like the multiple outcomes that could result from this scenario.

Now THAT I totally agree with. It's very much for individual tables to decide and that makes it a really good module.

 

[Hussar]

I've been busy and only skimmed the mod. As far as I am concerned the people selling the books are guilty of fraud and attempted homicide. You could potentially argue for manslaughter, I think it's murder because they knew they were selling a dangerous creature under false pretenses and don't care.

Now maybe when you DM that's not a crime. In my campaign it is. That's all, and I'm done discussing this.

Again, fair enough. But, you're getting push back because you only skimmed the module and don't know the details. Note, you couldn't argue manslaughter at all because no one died. Attempted murder? You'd never make that charge stick. In modern terms, the strongest you could argue for is reckless endangerment.

But, again, WHOSE LAWS? And, I'm spring boarding off of @Oofta's point here because he's said he's done with the conversation. I'm honestly really curious though. If you went down the legal road, whose laws got broken? Candlekeep has no authority outside of Candlekeep and, frankly, the only laws of Candlekeep that were broken were the entry laws. I mean, the first module has a book case that kills people and no one claims that Fistandia should be arrested for murder. Heck, according to the first module, a person dies directly because of a thing that Fistandia stores in Candlekeep and there's not even a whisper of holding her accountable. ((Granted, she's missing, but, that shouldn't matter)) So, I can't imagine that a "dangerous book" is grounds for any sort of action.

Baldur's Gate where the book was sold? You could argue the fraud angle, obviously. The book is sold as an original and it's a fake, so, sure. But, again, I'm not sure what the applicable laws of Baldur's Gate are. Does anyone have the Avernus module? That would likely say. Looking at the Waterdeep Codes Legal there's nothing in there talking about fraud or selling fraudulent goods. It appears that caveat empor rules.

Can anyone point me to which laws would actually be broken?

 

[Oofta]

Again, fair enough. But, you're getting push back because you only skimmed the module and don't know the details. Note, you couldn't argue manslaughter at all because no one died. Attempted murder? You'd never make that charge stick. In modern terms, the strongest you could argue for is reckless endangerment.

But, again, WHOSE LAWS? And, I'm spring boarding off of @Oofta's point here because he's said he's done with the conversation. I'm honestly really curious though. If you went down the legal road, whose laws got broken? Candlekeep has no authority outside of Candlekeep and, frankly, the only laws of Candlekeep that were broken were the entry laws. I mean, the first module has a book case that kills people and no one claims that Fistandia should be arrested for murder. Heck, according to the first module, a person dies directly because of a thing that Fistandia stores in Candlekeep and there's not even a whisper of holding her accountable. ((Granted, she's missing, but, that shouldn't matter)) So, I can't imagine that a "dangerous book" is grounds for any sort of action.

Baldur's Gate where the book was sold? You could argue the fraud angle, obviously. The book is sold as an original and it's a fake, so, sure. But, again, I'm not sure what the applicable laws of Baldur's Gate are. Does anyone have the Avernus module? That would likely say. Looking at the Waterdeep Codes Legal there's nothing in there talking about fraud or selling fraudulent goods. It appears that caveat empor rules.

Can anyone point me to which laws would actually be broken?

I've given my opinion. There's nothing else to discuss.

You think fraudulently selling a time bomb is not a crime. I do.

 

[Hussar]

I've given my opinion. There's nothing else to discuss.

You think fraudulently selling a time bomb is not a crime. I do.

Please stop. Please stop misrepresenting my point.

My question is, WHAT CRIME? What, specifically is the crime? And where? Where does the crime take place.

I am not, in any way, shape or form commenting on the morality of the situation. Simply the legality. Those are two different issues that you keep tying together. Is what they did morally wrong? Oh yeah. Like you said, they fraudulently sold a time bomb. But, being morally wrong isn't the same as illegal. LOTS of things are morally wrong that aren't illegal.

So, again, this time with gusto, what is the specific crime you would charge them with and to which authority would you have the PC's report the crime to?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I never said they all deserve to die, that's not my call. To say that they won't or shouldn't be punished because of sheer coincidence that no one died is what I disagree with.

As a DM you can decide what the judicial system should be. Maybe they could be turned over to the people that run Candlekeep.

They aren't going to "come quietly" under any circumstances. Negotiation or death are pretty much the only options available to the PCs. And they are too powerful for "the authorities" to deal with in any case.

As for punishing them, cui bono?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Baldur's Gate where the book was sold? You could argue the fraud angle, obviously. The book is sold as an original and it's a fake, so, sure. But, again, I'm not sure what the applicable laws of Baldur's Gate are.

I don't think movable type printing has become established anywhere in the Forgotten Realms (apart from Lantan maybe), which means coping books is a major industry. In the real world the monasteries made a lot of their money that way - some histories argue that Henry VIII was only able to dissolve the monasteries (and steal their loot in true D&D style) because of the invention of printing. So it's very unlikely that there is anything illegal about copying books.

 

[Hussar]

I don't think movable type printing has become established anywhere in the Forgotten Realms (apart from Lantan maybe), which means coping books is a major industry. In the real world the monasteries made a lot of their money that way - some histories argue that Henry VIII was only able to dissolve the monasteries (and steal their loot in true D&D style) because of the invention of printing. So it's very unlikely that there is anything illegal about copying books.

Like I said, it's the fraud part. They aren't selling "copies". They are selling forged originals. So, obviously, selling them for a much higher price.

Of course, the notion of simply setting up a copy shop and using the Gingawazim openly never occured to me or my party. it's a really brilliant solution.

 

[Oofta]

Please stop. Please stop misrepresenting my point.

My question is, WHAT CRIME? What, specifically is the crime? And where? Where does the crime take place.

I am not, in any way, shape or form commenting on the morality of the situation. Simply the legality. Those are two different issues that you keep tying together. Is what they did morally wrong? Oh yeah. Like you said, they fraudulently sold a time bomb. But, being morally wrong isn't the same as illegal. LOTS of things are morally wrong that aren't illegal.

So, again, this time with gusto, what is the specific crime you would charge them with and to which authority would you have the PC's report the crime to?

Crimes. Fraudulently selling a shapechanger as a book is the first one. The next charge is more serious. Sooner or later the starving shapechanger will eat the first thing it encounters, likely a person. I'd categorize it as attempted second degree murder or possibly reckless endangerment.

Second degree murder as defined here

• An unplanned, intentional killing (reacting in the heat of the moment when angry)
• A death caused by a reckless disregard for human life

If someone plants a bomb and it goes off but no one dies, it's a crime. The shapechanger is the magical equivalent of a ticking bomb and they were fully aware of this fact. I don't see how anyone could justify that selling something that will attempt to kill people to survive is not a crime.

I'm not going to respond again to you on this, have a good one.