D&D (2024) Sacred Cows: Ability Scores

[Yaarel]

If skills use scores, but attacks use bonuses, the math becomes wonky, and the gaming mechanics warp and break.

Keeping scores is the opposite of elegant and robust gaming design.

We left the diverse adhoc incompatable mechanics of 1e, long ago, for a reason.

 

[Steampunkette]

I think smaller numbers are preferred. If the choices is making everything a +1 or a +10, I think a +1 is better. I agree scores add more complecity and make the game more granular, and if the objective is to make the game more of that sure, keep it... expand it. But I think that's not going to be the goal, so, if we are not going to use the granular system ability scores offer, and they are just an apendage, a remnant of old editions, shouldn't we cut it?

If your arm is broken and nonfunctional do you slice it off or try to mend it?

If it's broken in such a way that it will never gain full use, again, do you cut it off or make a prosthetic to make it more useful than it currently is?

You keep calling it a Sacred Cow, but the point of Sacred Cows is that you -don't- kill them because they have a particular reverence tied to them. There is something important, there, even if it's either hard to put into words or entirely based in feeling and faith rather than function.

 

[Bolares]

If your arm is broken and nonfunctional do you slice it off or try to mend it?

If it's broken in such a way that it will never gain full use, again, do you cut it off or make a prosthetic to make it more useful than it currently is?

I don't think this is a good analogy. Comparing a body part to scores is a bit much for me.

You keep calling it a Sacred Cow

Is this a "me" you or a "general" you. because I didn't call it a sacred cow in any of the posts in our conversations....

I'm not trying to "kill" anything because it has or doesn't have reverence tied to it. I'm asking what's the actual use we have for it, and what are the concrete benefits of having it (if we keep trying to streamline the game). I've said why I think there are reasons for the removal of scores (streamlining, removing new player confusion, etc...), but if the only reason to keep it is feeling and faith.... I don't think that's reason enough. But hey, to each their own. If you like them and have an attachment to them cool!

 

[Steampunkette]

I don't think this is a good analogy. Comparing a body part to scores is a bit much for me.


Is this a "me" you or a "general" you. because I didn't call it a sacred cow in any of the posts in our conversations....

I'm not trying to "kill" anything because it has or doesn't have reverence tied to it. I'm asking what's the actual use we have for it, and what are the concrete benefits of having it (if we keep trying to streamline the game). I've said why I think there are reasons for the removal of scores (streamlining, removing new player confusion, etc...), but if the only reason to keep it is feeling and faith.... I don't think that's reason enough. But hey, to each their own. If you like them and have an attachment to them cool!

Ah. Nope. That was 100% my fault with the Sacred Cow thing. I got mixed up on who wrote the OP. I apologize!

That said... You are the one who called it an "Appendage". So I think carrying that analogy on was valid in context.

As to the streamlining thing: If that's the only goal going forward? Sure. There's a lot of things we can streamline. The question becomes, instead, how far we -should- streamline, which aspects, and why.

As to my reverence for Ability Scores... kinda meh on them? I think they work fine as they are, a little bit of old school flavor to make sure the game still "Feels" like D&D.

But if we -really- want to streamline ability scores with no thoughts given to "Sacred Cows"?

Physical Power
Physical Toughness
Mental Power
Mental Toughness
Social Power
Social Toughness

Having the flavorful names for the different character abilities is very Old School and cool, but trying to explain the difference between Intelligence and Wisdom is dull and often frustrating for younger players. Meanwhile "Power" and "Toughness" are very simple to understand.

And by breaking it into three categories, we maintain the idea of 6 attributes while also creating a way to handle resilience in social situations! Sure, Dex and Strength kinda get collapsed into one, but that works, right?

Just have modifiers 1 to 5 for those stats, no need for scores whatsoever, and let people gain one +1 at level 1 and another +1 at 4th and every 4 levels after that.

It also makes it easier to handle things like Saving Throws (Toughness is your attribute for them) on different forms of attack.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I'm worried about attaching bonuses to class (and not just as a free floating 'thing' or balanced around an ancestories other abilities) because I feel that could cause unfortunate restrictions on how to play certain classes. Obviously, a lot of cases already have restrictions on how you play a class because at-least one ability score is quite important to play the class, but a lot don't force you to invest in two stats for sure (the whole SAD vs MAD) and some are quite flexible as of right now - Fighter and Paladin can be played as Strength or Dexterity based, for example (and I certainly wish the somewhat common homerule of Warlocks either being Charisma or Intelligence based was just the standarad).

I feel that attaching bonuses to class might not allow the flexibility - it is possible by the book but I can easily see decisions being that leads to Fighters only getting a +2 to Strength and a +1 to another, making Dexterity based fighters more difficult.

I also don't see this happening as it would likely make a 6e really incompatible with a 5e, and I think that compatibility is important not only business wise, but also community wise.

That would be a weird way to do it, though: if they went this route, they'd probably copy Pathfinder 2e's approach and so fighters would most likely get a +2 to strength or dex, and a +1 to anything else. (Or the +1 would come from background, or some such).

Monks might get a choice of +2 dex or +2 wis or +1 to each, for example. It's workable.

 

[jmartkdr2]

You'd really have to work to determine what those skills actually mean and what effects they have. Otherwise it's like, you can Perform for 12 people if you have a 12 Cha, but the other 9 people in the crowd are... not entertained? Actively heckling you? Unaffected by whatever pseudo-magical effect Perform creates?

Maximum number of people who might leave a tip.

I'm pretty sure they were just spitballing, but I do generally like the idea of the raw score dictating some minimum results for certain things, similar to how jump distance works already.

 

[Thunder Brother]

I find the usage of Ability Scores and Modifiers to be awkward. Do we need two sets of numbers? Not really. Ability Scores don't matter outside of a few niche situations and the Modifier does most of the work. So drop the Scores, keep the Modifiers, and rejigger the rules where necessary and you'll probably end up with a mostly unchanged but more elegant system.

If you want raw scores, play Pendragon?*

*speaking as someone who loves Pendragon's rules system

 

[overgeeked]

When we get a new editions, should we dispense with ability scores and just have bonuses listed instead?
A starting stat block might instead give a +3, a +2, Two +1s, a non bonus, and a -1 for example.
Besides tradition, the only reason for ability scores that are translated into bonuses is "granularity", in which one can have odd numbered scores that don't increase the bonus, acting as a stopgap between actual mechanical increases or penalties.

Thoughts?

I prefer the other way around. Drop modifiers and keep the scores. Use scores for checks, like the old days.

 

[Bolares]

You are the one who called it an "Appendage"

Oh, The term got lost in translation. I was trying to call it an appendix, not an appendage. I hate when two very different words sound alike in english hahahah

 

[Charlaquin]

When we get a new editions, should we dispense with ability scores and just have bonuses listed instead?
A starting stat block might instead give a +3, a +2, Two +1s, a non bonus, and a -1 for example.
Besides tradition, the only reason for ability scores that are translated into bonuses is "granularity", in which one can have odd numbered scores that don't increase the bonus, acting as a stopgap between actual mechanical increases or penalties.

Thoughts?

I don’t agree that granularity is the only reason for scores. I don’t even think it’s the main reason. The main reason is to preserve the 3d6 and 4d6 drop one methods of randomly generating your abilities.