D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

[Malmuria]

I mean, here's the official live play for 5e, with the game's designer as dm. You can watch the recap from 4:40. Does this look like classic fantasy to you? Granted it's a live show, usually with an audience, and thus over the top.

 

[abirdcall]

I don't think anything is terrible or unplayable (because ultimately the ASI itself is just a +5%, not super meaningful). But as you note in the other post, racial asi does encourage certain race-class combinations, and so is an attempted means to reinforce particular classic archetypes (halfling thief, etc). I just think that's a weak and indirect (relative to other editions) way of reinforcing those archetypes.



My hypothesis would be that some people come to dnd wanting those classic fantasy archetypes, but a lot of people come also with other ideas, archetypes, and characters from other genres. We can see even in the published settings for 5e (Ebberon, Ravenloft, Theros, Ravnica). I don't think it's a dealbreaker to if you want to create, say, a dwarven artificer for a steampunk setting, but neither is the ASI doing any work for you either. Playing with or against against archetype is not meaningful when a player or a setting isn't really invested in those archetypes one way or another.

I still don't think I'm understanding you.

Are you arguing that the game won't be popular like this? Because it clearly is.

Going generic fantasy is a terrible idea and part of what they learned from 4e.

 

[Malmuria]

I still don't think I'm understanding you.

Are you arguing that the game won't be popular like this? Because it clearly is.

Going generic fantasy is a terrible idea and part of what they learned from 4e.

Sorry, maybe I'm not expressing myself well. I don't know what will be popular. I think my basic point is that 5e is already quite removed from classic fantasy, especially when you add in all the races, lineages, and subclasses from the sourcebooks and the types of scenarios presented in the adventures (flying around on airships, 'mad max in hell' etc). So I don't see racial asi as some kind of line in the sand that, when crossed, will mean the game becomes freeform and unmoored from those archetypes, because I think that's basically already the case. And people seem to want to use the 5e ruleset to make all sorts of games. I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing from a design/mechanics standpoint, but just saying it feels like a natural evolution for the game at this point.

 

[abirdcall]

Sorry, maybe I'm not expressing myself well. I don't know what will be popular. I think my basic point is that 5e is already quite removed from classic fantasy, especially when you add in all the races, lineages, and subclasses from the sourcebooks and the types of scenarios presented in the adventures (flying around on airships, 'mad max in hell' etc). So I don't see racial asi as some kind of line in the sand that, when crossed, will mean the game becomes freeform and unmoored from those archetypes, because I think that's basically already the case. And people seem to want to use the 5e ruleset to make all sorts of games. I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing from a design/mechanics standpoint, but just saying it feels like a natural evolution for the game at this point.

Maybe this is why we're talking past each other.

I never said D&D is 'classic' fantasy. I don't want it to be and don't think it should be.

It should be D&D fantasy.

Steps toward making it generic is bad. One of those steps is removing racial ASIs with nothing to replace them.

 

[Argyle King]

For me that's too specific. I want to encourage and reinforce archetypes but I don't want a situation where Wood Elves have Sharpshooter or whatever and so they all end up being archers.

I was thinking that would be in place of just getting proficiency in longbow. It wouldn't give any bonus to hit; it would be a unique enhancement to reflect skill (cultural training) and innate ability (better eyesight and good hand-eye coordination).

Offhand, I'm not sure what the equivalent for longsword would be.

My thought process was to attempt to give unique racial abilities which are different than what feats and class abilities offer, while also getting away from the +N method currently used.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Random thought I had while in the car:

Would something like "wood elves don't suffer disadvantages for firing at long range with longbows" be more acceptable as a way to illustrate some idea of being more dexterous and/or being culturally familiar with certain weapons?

I've been trying to come up with something that conveys the theme of elves being especially adept with bows, but without making it a sort of "must-have" for archer builds. My idea was something along the lines of, "When you are surprised, you can still make a single bow attack on your turn" or something like that.

Whether either of ideas would become the "must have" ability for archers I don't know.

 

[abirdcall]

I was thinking that would be in place of just getting proficiency in longbow. It wouldn't give any bonus to hit; it would be a unique enhancement to reflect skill (cultural training) and innate ability (better eyesight and good hand-eye coordination).

Offhand, I'm not sure what the equivalent for longsword would be.

My thought process was to attempt to give unique racial abilities which are different than what feats and class abilities offer, while also getting away from the +N method currently used.

It is directly a bonus to hit. Negating a disadvantage is a bonus to hit when at long range.

I get your point but I just don't think it's possible. We can make it fancier than a numerical bonus but in the end it all amounts to the same thing - being better at something.

I would say this way is even worse as what they're better at is much narrower. Being more favourable for dextrous characters encourages many sorts of characters but being better at the longbow encourages characters who use longbows only.

 

[Argyle King]

It is directly a bonus to hit. Negating a disadvantage is a bonus to hit when at long range.

I get your point but I just don't think it's possible. We can make it fancier than a numerical bonus but in the end it all amounts to the same thing - being better at something.

I would say this way is even worse as what they're better at is much narrower. Being more favourable for dextrous characters encourages many sorts of characters but being better at the longbow encourages characters who use longbows only.

I don't see absence of a penalty as equivalent to having advantage -especially with the binary nature of advantage/disadvantage in 5E.

Still...

If D&D used range modifiers, I would go that route by reducing range penalties by a step.

Maybe that could be done by saying Elves get something like "...add 10ft to the normal range for a ranged weapon and 5ft to the long range for a ranged weapon."

Alternatively, the 4th Edition Elf Power was a once per encounter reroll of a ranged attack. A way to do something similar in 5E might be "...you may choose to gain advantage on a ranged attack a number of times per day equal to your proficiency bonus; all uses recharge after a long rest."

 

[Malmuria]

I don't see absence of a penalty as equivalent to having advantage -especially with the binary nature of advantage/disadvantage in 5E.

Still...

If D&D used range modifiers, I would go that route by reducing range penalties by a step.

Maybe that could be done by saying Elves get something like "...add 10ft to the normal range for a ranged weapon and 5ft to the long range for a ranged weapon."

Alternatively, the 4th Edition Elf Power was a once per encounter reroll of a ranged attack. A way to do something similar in 5E might be "...you may choose to gain advantage on a ranged attack a number of times per day equal to your proficiency bonus; all uses recharge after a long rest."

Maybe there could be special magic bows only usable by wood elves

 

[Argyle King]

Maybe there could be special magic bows only usable by wood elves

Maybe, but that would address items moreso than a racial ability.

There are artifacts (a hammer I think) which prefer to be used by dwarves. There are also swords which only paladins can use. A similar item that's a bow for elves would be possible.

Edited for clarity