D&D 4E Anyone playing 4e at the moment?

[dave2008]

High level 4e characters are high level under their own steam regardless of class

Not exactly sure what that means, but 20th level 5e fighters can do some pretty amazing things. If you compare it to 20th level 4e fighters I don't think they come off to bad. But I am sure that is a matter of perspective. Also, out of the gate, 4e fighters (and all classes really) need magic items to keep pace. That is not the case in 5e. Unfortunately they didn't take full advantage of that fact in 5e.

EDIT: I don't remember how many EDU uses a 20th lvl fighter gets, can you remind me?

 

[Garthanos]

Not exactly sure what that means,

In AD&D the assertion was certain classes were only not seriously awesome
because of magic items (they were joe down the block who was luckily hard to kill) but not able to accomplish anything grand except that

but 20th level 5e fighters can do some pretty amazing things. If you compare it to 20th level 4e fighters

That seems a miss comparison based on the tiers 20th should be end of epic.
1-4 (training wheels tier does not exist in 4e)
5-10(heroic tier)
11-15(paragon)
16-20(epic)

 

[Garthanos]

4e fighters (and all classes really) need magic items to keep pace.

I have been using inherent bonuses for so long, and that is a math deal not really the same as amazing things category in my book (expected pluses being distinctly different)
And if everyone is dependent that is not a distinction (the mages in 1e were not dependent on items

 

[Garthanos]

To be honest, skill challenges were not well developed in 4e. I like the concept, however, execution in the DMG & DMG 2 was not the best. I did find some wonderful examples online though. The key to doing them well was to make it organic, so the players didn't even know when they were in a skill challenge. At least IMO.

I found the DMG2 version pretty good ... ok it was actually the first one I sat down and read front to back because I didnt start playing 4e till after it came out and jumping around is a learning style honest.
I think of it as a concept I very much liked and felt it deserved more development instead of abandonment which is what I felt happened to most of 4es best material.

 

[dave2008]

In AD&D the assertion was certain classes were only not seriously awesome
because of magic items (they were joe down the block who was luckily hard to kill) but not able to accomplish anything grand except that

That seems a miss comparison based on the tiers 20th should be end of epic.
1-4 (training wheels tier does not exist in 4e)
5-10(heroic tier)
11-15(paragon)
16-20(epic)

I disagree. 4e's mantra was "epic is core - we go to lvl 30!" That is not 5e. If you want epic in 5e, that is what epic boons are for.

 

[dave2008]

I have been using inherent bonuses for so long, and that is a math deal not really the same as amazing things category in my book (expected pluses being distinctly different)
And if everyone is dependent that is not a distinction (the mages in 1e were not dependent on items

Agreed, but you were talking about fighters needing magic items to do amazing things in previous editions. Well the needed them in 4e just to stay a float (in theory - I didn't have any issue with my party being a down a bonus or two). The nice thing about 5e is that you don't need them at all and you can still do cool things with fighters (not as much as I would like, but there is actually more than most think and LevelUp is adding even more).

 

[Garthanos]

I disagree. 4e's mantra was "epic is core - we go to lvl 30!" That is not 5e. If you want epic in 5e, that is what epic boons are for.

They very much have spells analog to epic spells in 5e before 20 and get no new one I disagree they made epic be over 20 at all their last 3 tiers match fairly close 4es and math being divide by 2 also works out very close when you use that.

I think they squashed martial types cool things to be only heroic tier... the fighters maneuvers being all things you could hand a level 3 character....

 

[Garthanos]

Agreed, but you were talking about fighters needing magic items to do amazing things in previous editions.

and it was contextually a comparison to mages who didnt....

The nice thing about 5e is that you don't need them at all and you can still do cool things with fighters (not as much as I would like, but there is actually more than most think

Yeh meh I cannot even pull a super jump without some mangled cross class combo involving spells (or heaven forbid a monk multiclass) or a dm deciding to take pity

and LevelUp is adding even more).

Level up I am going to purchase because reasons

 

[dave2008]

They very much have spells analog to epic spells in 5e before 20 and get no new one I disagree they made epic be over 20 at all their last 3 tiers match fairly close 4es and math being divide by 2 also works out very close when you use that.

I think they squashed martial types cool things to be only heroic tier... the fighters maneuvers being all things you could hand a level 3 character....

Again, I disagree. Now what 4e was selling on epic and what they delivered is different. What they delivered was closer to every other edition's lvl 1-20 (which is where I agree with you), but that is not how they sold it. But that is a tale for another day.

 

[dave2008]

Yeh meh I cannot even pull a super jump without some mangled cross class combo involving spells (or heaven forbid a monk multiclass) or a dm deciding to take pity

Different wants and desires I guess. I have no need for my fighters to pull supper jumps (and they didn't when we played 4e). That is not what I want out of my D&D (at least not before epic, which to me is lvl 20+ in 5e).