D&D 4E Anyone playing 4e at the moment?

[dave2008]

I think 4es description mapped better. With characters exceeding human range of attributes and the out classing of other tier enemies and obstacles and the like 5e actively strove not to do that.

I guess here is the rub. I don't want characters exceeding the human range, until the get to epic. But as you have noted 4e people are doing it all the time, so it never feels epic.

 

[dave2008]

I think 4es description mapped better.

I agree with that

 

[dave2008]

What does "epic:" mean sans story?
You just decided mechanics being roughly the same meant the game could not be epic "epic" which has no definition to me without connection with story?

I think I have been clear: I want epic to be different from a base mechanics. I do think story is part of being epic, but when I say I don't care about story, I mean I don't care about the built-in story of the game. I never use that, so I don't care about. Now, I will say that 4e had a more coherent story than probably any other edition of D&D. The thing is, I don't care. I have never really invested in the lore and stories of TSR / WotC. Now, I will say I really like the 4e cosmos, Dawn War, Primordials, etc. However, I liked it less and less as the edition wore on and they tried to weave in more and more of old D&D lore.

nods I exaggerated oooh.

To me I see it as 4e made no suggestion for adventuring beyond the finale.

I didn't say it did.

 

[Garthanos]

I guess here is the rub. I don't want characters exceeding the human range, until the get to epic. But as you have noted 4e people are doing it all the time, so it never feels epic.

I think it makes more sense as a gradual thing but I see advancing into demi-godhood as a process of discovery of something you really had all along. You had that weird birth and periodically with a burst people notice but mostly your scale is discovered over time. Cu Cuhlainn the 8 year old prodigy didnt do his Daemonic feat immediately but he as already breaking the bounds in more subtle ways till it reaches the blatant.

 

[Lyxen]

Why exactly are you on this thread?

Because we are just discussing ?

In my experience 1e had incredible constraints on martial characters they had so little intrinsic, almost nothing that made them even as interesting as 5e ones. And poppycock about magic items making the martial characters feel mythic it made them feel like peasants dependent on DM largess compared to casters, ie the exact opposite of your assertion happened all the time see that was my experience is that wonderful how anecdotes work?

In every edition it's also up to the DM to make sure that everyone has fun. Some editions were more balanced than others, 4e being by far the most balanced of them all, so yes, it was up to the DM to balance things more in editions where martial and casters were more unbalanced. But it was in no way impossible to do and we had great fun for a long stretch of time.

In comparison, while 4e was really balanced, it was much more bland to us. It's not an assertion of value or anything of the kind, just our personal feeling, that's all.

My 9th level fighter might as well had side-kick floating over his head, he had a sword with higher numbers and hitpoints... oh my how epic. /sarcasm

First, 9th level is not really high level. At higher level, there was also magic resistance that made swords really useful in a number of cases. After that, see above about the role of the DM in every single edition.

 

[Garthanos]

I think I have been clear: I want epic to be different from a base mechanics.

I am not understanding what you are targeting to achieve with that perhaps? I understand that you want mechanically district representations.
Grandiose and "Monumental" and other modern semi-synonyms for epic really kind of have a root of "bigger" and it is about scale.

I do think story is part of being epic, but when I say I don't care about story, I mean I don't care about the built-in story of the game. I never use that, so I don't care about.

I have also almost always used my own gameworld cosmos (4e is closer to my game world in some ways than any of the previous. And doing a bit of swordmages directly in their native setting and flavors was fun too.

Now, I will say that 4e had a more coherent story than probably any other edition of D&D. The thing is, I don't care. I have never really invested in the lore and stories of TSR / WotC. Now, I will say I really like the 4e cosmos, Dawn War, Primordials, etc. However, I liked it less and less as the edition wore on and they tried to weave in more and more of old D&D lore.

Yeah I think we agree generally speaking perhaps I should mention that more often.

 

[S'mon]

I am considering demoing a 4e game soon when we are done with our current 5e campaign.
We are having a blast with 5e but our group really likes doing tactical combats between the role playing. Hence I am looking at 4e as a possibility.
Is it still feasible in this day and age? We are using Roll20 and the tools for 4e are not as polished as the 5e ones. Any experiences to share?

I'm in two 4e games now - playing weekly Nentir Vale online (2 sessions in, level 1), and alternately playing & GMing FR IRL (around 12 sessions in, level 4) - 4e Tabletop D&D - Silverymoon & Chaos Scar

Loving it; makes a very fun change from 5e, and the offline charbuilder still works great - https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1563/76/1563769640377.pdf
For monsters etc I can refer to Offline Compendium
I don't have a working monster builder/monster slider, but that's a minor issue.

 

[dave2008]

I am not understanding what you are targeting to achieve with that perhaps? I understand that you want mechanically district representations.
Grandiose and "Monumental" and other modern semi-synonyms for epic really kind of have a root of "bigger" and it is about scale.

I am sorry, it has been a long day and I built a lot of concrete formwork for my patio and I just don't have the energy to try and think about it anymore at this time. Maybe later.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Boons must have really impressed him.

Yup and none of that is anywhere to be seen in 5e not even in those boons that will suddenly make the guy from gym feel awesomely epic as he performs the same maneuvers he could at level 3 either.

4e presents for me a natural progression into legendary and mythic range and begins with a hero 5e really feels like a stall out.(maybe not for casters)

Unless I missed something the 5e fighter very likely has nothing at 20 that he couldn't have at level 5.

I'm not really a 5e guru, maybe some of the new books have some sort of options I'm not up to speed on, etc. Playing the battlemaster though I didn't run into any sort of capability which really changes materially from level 3 on. You get a few more of certain things, you get 'Indomitable' at level 9, but that's not really spectacular, it just gives you some extra saves. You get more/bigger superiority dice, and extra maneuver picks, but its all from the same list you choose from at level 3. You can obviously choose feats, but again its not like there's some higher level list of crazy ones that do something amazing.

Certainly a 20th level Battlemaster will be supernaturally resilient, and get a lot of super strong weapon attacks. He can get a lot of those attacks, and add more with Action Surge, and will get at least one superiority die per turn, guaranteed. He still cannot pull any trick he couldn't pull at level 3. Potentially he can make ability checks in some undefined situations which will pass 'impossible' grade checks, but when, where, how, and if those checks can be made is not really defined by the rules.

I see nothing at all 'epic' about this character. He can of course probably kill some very nasty looking monsters with his weapons, but that's it. I agree that the Epic Boons don't really excite me. Looking at them, they're honestly not even mostly on a par with high level spell slots. They seem more like basic thematic elements that I would more closely associate with something like 15th or 17th level or higher play, basically (what 5e terms the 'Masters of the Realm/World'. I would not consider them 'capstone' type abilities, and frankly non-casters in 5e simply lack such, entirely.

In contrast every 4e ED provides abilities more thematic of really high level play IMHO than any of these. Well, there are a few 'dud' EDs out there, but given that there are a couple hundred choices...

 

[Garthanos]

Epic to me is about Scale
In 4e my fighter has an at-will power called knockdown assault it sounds pretty mundane at first glance and is not considered a power house you might even notice it only advances based on attributes of the fighter.

However you might notice a detail it also prones an enemy regardless of size so when you are fighting Gargantuan Dragons yes you can toss their scaled hiney it can be seen as a sophisticated move that uses the enemies strength and mass against them.

In comparison the 5e battlemasters move is forever small stuff with a realism target that makes them not epic in my opinion.

edit: I think 4e assumes the heroes awesome scales to as his foes do over his adventuring career and does not need one to take extra feats or explicit subclasses to achieve this.