D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

Lyxen

Great Old One
There are however. They are just not as notable as the villains, cause the villains are the ones that will be used in games most of the time.

Exactly. If you look at various editions, there are tons of hierarchies of Archons, for example, not mentioning Devas and the Planetars and Solars. And if you look at Planescape (best setting ever IMHO), you have descriptions that start with "Mount Celestia is largely the domains of the Archons", which is the exact counterpart of the Devils in Hell.

After that, in addition to the creatures who are the embodiment of the qualities of a plane, you have which deity have their domains where, and whether these deities need worship or not, so many potential combinations

As I love Planescape, the variety of the races, deities, planes, interactions, I like to keep everything, but you are of course absolutely to have a more streamlined cosmology if you wish it.
 

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DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I think gods should all be Unaligned personally. Every deity should have aspects that their worshippers would consider good, and other parts that were not. They are above mortal judgement, so who gets to say that one is "good" and one is "evil"?

Now for those players who still go with the Gygaxian idea that good, evil, law and chaos are manifestible ideals, the need for everyone to have a distinct alignment might be very important. I, however, find that to be a game concept I no longer wish to continue with.
 
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pukunui

Legend
There are however. They are just not as notable as the villains, cause the villains are the ones that will be used in games most of the time.
Exactly. If you look at various editions, there are tons of hierarchies of Archons, for example, not mentioning Devas and the Planetars and Solars. And if you look at Planescape (best setting ever IMHO), you have descriptions that start with "Mount Celestia is largely the domains of the Archons", which is the exact counterpart of the Devils in Hell.
But are there named "archangels" that would be the goodly counterparts to the demon princes and archdevils? The devas, planetars, etc are more like the counterparts to balors, pit fiends, etc. If there are any named "angel princes" or the like that aren't the gods, they don't get any exposure really.

As I love Planescape, the variety of the races, deities, planes, interactions, I like to keep everything, but you are of course absolutely to have a more streamlined cosmology if you wish it.
Not a big fan of Planescape or the Great Wheel comsology. I much prefer the 4e cosmology. I like Dragon Age's cosmology even better.

I think God's should all be Unaligned personally. Every deity should have aspects that their worshippers would consider good, and other parts that were not. They are above mortal judgement, so who gets to say that one is "good" and one is "evil"?
That would certainly help address some of those complaints that good deities can't really be all that good if they tolerate all the various evil deities and such.
 

But are there named "archangels" that would be the goodly counterparts to the demon princes and archdevils? The devas, planetars, etc are more like the counterparts to balors, pit fiends, etc. If there are any named "angel princes" or the like that aren't the gods, they don't get any exposure really.
Yes
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
But are there named "archangels" that would be the goodly counterparts to the demon princes and archdevils? The devas, planetars, etc are more like the counterparts to balors, pit fiends, etc. If there are any named "angel princes" or the like that aren't the gods, they don't get any exposure really.

Well, you have at least one named in 5e history, Zariel... ;)

Not a big fan of Planescape or the Great Wheel comsology. I much prefer the 4e cosmology. I like Dragon Age's cosmology even better.

Personal preferences are fine, as for me I was raised on the Great Wheel, and I love its intricacies and capabilities for intrigue.

That would certainly help address some of those complaints that good deities can't really be all that good if they tolerate all the various evil deities and such.

Although it's a possibility, you don't need it in the Great Wheel and similar cosmologies since it's just that the evil deities are just as powerful as the good ones, so it's not a question of tolerating them but of having to deal with them on an equal footing.
 

pukunui

Legend
Well, you have at least one named in 5e history, Zariel... ;)
According to both Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes and Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus, she was a "mighty angel" but that doesn't make her the equal/counterpart of Orcus or Levistus. I would probably put her on the same level as a pit fiend. After she fell, she was then elevated to the position of an archdevil when she took over Avernus.

Nevertheless, I feel my point stands: even if D&D has had archangels / angelic princes in the past, they are virtually unheard of today. They don't play a big part in the grand scheme of the multiverse, like the demon princes and archdevils (and even the princes of elemental evil) do.

I think the closest thing we've had in recent times were 4e's exarchs, some of whom were classed as lesser deities or demigods in previous editions. All of them were servants of the gods, however, and I'd be willing to bet that any other named archangels / angelic princes in D&D's history are as well. I would therefore not class them as being on an equal footing to the demon princes and archdevils, none of whom explicitly serve any of the evil deities. In the FR cosmology, Juiblex isn't a servant of Moander any more than Orcus is a servant of Myrkul.

In fact, gods like Myrkul and Bhaal and Bane are just as likely to have angels / archons / celestials as servants as the good gods are.

So there's still more doubling up of the bad guys really.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
According to both Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes and Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus, she was a "mighty angel" but that doesn't make her the equal/counterpart of Orcus or Levistus. I would probably put her on the same level as a pit fiend.

And I would disagree. She was not a deva. planetar or solar, (which you said "The devas, planetars, etc are more like the counterparts to balors, pit fiends, etc.").

Nevertheless, I feel my point stands: even if D&D has had archangels / angelic princes in the past, they are virtually unheard of today. They don't play a big part in the grand scheme of the multiverse, like the demon princes and archdevils (and even the princes of elemental evil) do.

Well I would say that she played as big a part as the Archdevils and Demon Princes, responded in kind to Yeenoghu's invasion of the Prime for example, which clearly puts her at the same level as a Demon Prince. It's just that they are more discreet about it and are less likely to become adversaries of the PC, in addition to in general respecting the happiness and free will of people of the Prime.

I think the closest thing we've had in recent times were 4e's exarchs, some of whom were classed as lesser deities or demigods in previous editions. All of them were servants of the gods, however, and I'd be willing to bet that any other named archangels / angelic princes in D&D's history are as well. I would therefore not class them as being on an equal footing to the demon princes and archdevils, none of whom explicitly serve any of the evil deities.

Actually they do, Asmodeus is considered a god in many cosmologies for example, so the parallel is obvious.

In the FR cosmology, Juiblex isn't a servant of Moander any more than Orcus is a servant of Myrkul.

And they don't have to be.

In fact, gods like Myrkul and Bhaal and Bane are just as likely to have angels / archons / celestials as servants as the good gods are.

No, for alignment reasons, all of these only serve good deities, but they have their own cohorts which I think can be specific as well as creatures corrupted/wrenched from the closest alignment planes.

So there's still more doubling up of the bad guys really.

And again, not really, Good deities often have their own cohorts as well. I'm not exactly sure why you insist on a cosmic unbalance there, you can build a cosmology that way, but the creatures and designs also support a kind of balanced mirror hierarchies.
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
So there's actually a few layers to your question that I'll try and break down a little bit in my answer!

1) Historically Evil Gods
Largely didn't exist. They either weren't earnestly considered "Evil" in general, but as having done terrible things, or they weren't actually considered to be -gods- until some other (Very Western, Very Roman) culture rolled up and tried to quantify their beliefs under the same framework of their own belief system.

Take Set, for example. He was the god of storms, disorder, violence, the red desert, and foreigners. But he was also a hero who traveled with Ra who is Horus of the Twin Horizons on the solar barque each day to do battle with Apep, the Fire Serpent of the Underworld. While he killed his own brother and spent decades cheating at competitions to decide who would be the new Osiris, he still got Ra to bend over for him to have some rumpy pumpy time... and then got hilariously poisoned with Ra's seed spread on his salad. I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP.

Set was a deity of Storms and Red Clay, but that didn't make him -evil-. That just made him the deity of uncontrollable nature and wastelands. It wasn't until his portfolio included Foreigners and then Foreigners spent hundreds of years doing crappy things to Egypt that he got black marked as "Evil". And only because he protected Foreigners who did TERRIBLE THINGS to Egypt. But he still hopped on that barque every evening as the sun set in the west to help his nephew fight Apep and return to the sky each morning.

2) Gods in D&D
Because of how very Western D&D is, we have this continual idea that somehow Gods are removed from other things. They are external, eternal, and all-seeing (or near to it). They move through avatars and priests and you can only meet them if you planestravel or they come to the planet on a rare and specific occasion, usually for some massive knock down drag out with another deity and the playspace is a deific battleground so they don't mess up their own planes of existence too much.

Similarly, only Gods (And also Ideals for some reason) are capable of offering Divine Magic because it helps to define them -as- Gods separate from everything else. A God of Good is therefore needed to make Good Priests and a God of Evil is therefore needed to make Evil Priests. It's a ridiculous stipulation based entirely in very modern ideas of deific power and divine nature heavily influenced by monotheism and a monotheistic perspective of non-abrahamic religions and mythology. (Trying to be as nonspecific as possible, here)

3) Demons in D&D and Reality
Historically speaking demons in real world religious beliefs fall into two specific categories:

1: Monstrous Entities which fulfill a very specific, very limited, narrative role. Apep, for example, or one of the many Zoroastrian "Bad Thoughts". While these things largely started out as a fairly neutral concept, even though they were largely antagonistic, they largely became "Evil" through humanity's unending facility to create pointless and false dichotomies... again, largely because of very Western views on faith and belief where antagonism must be considered evil and protagonism must be considered good. The word Demon, after all, comes from the Greek "Daimon" meaning "Spiritual Entity" which largely referred to a person's different emotional and psychological aspects given spiritual significance....

2: Fallen Gods. Chemosh and Baalzebul, for example, were deities in ancient times who were considered superior to some other deities and lesser to others. Throw in a little Holy War which destroys or conquers (through bloodshed or theology) the lesser religion and the iconography and writing about that deity becomes twisted into a mockery of what it once was in order to appease the new status quo. D&D's Demon Lord of Flies and Filth is directly based on propaganda meant to unseat Baalzebul from his position of religious prominence.

And, because humans fall easily into a pack structure with a central hierarchical understanding of "Position", Demons wind up in their Hierarchies of Archdemons and Everything else. Because even the most Chaotic entities have to have a pecking order of power level for players to kick butt all the way up the roster, with some stopping point of "The Most Powerful Demons in the Multiverse" so we can sit on top of our hill of Demon Corpses and be proud of our many accomplishments.

4) Putting it All Together
Powerful Demons can't grant spells except to Warlocks by D&D's rules, therefor we need Evil Gods to do so in order to have evil clerics. Demons still exist as a hierarchical structure of enemies we can physically battle before Epic Levels which are a stand-in for actual Deities, even the Arch-Demons who cover the exact same domain. Thrown in with a hint of "Most DMs don't wanna RP Evil Gods for their players to slaughter and then have to redefine their campaign world around evil priests all losing power 'cause their god died".

Personal Note: Thank you for making me think about this, and what it should mean to the setting I'm working on. That is a massive help and it's going to make the setting just that little bit more different from standard D&D game settings. I do, deeply, appreciate it. I had previously decided that "Gods" in the setting would range from "Are they even real?" entities that exist outside of mortal experience in the whole Western Religious style as well as D&D Demons, Angels, and Elementals as Local Gods that can be physically defeated in the world. But now I'm going to be playing with the idea of a non-hierarchical demonry and angelry. Where a demon, no matter how "Weak", is just always an equal threat to the players, gaining "Levels" right along side them. Level 20 Imps and Lemures and Manes and Mariliths because there really shouldn't be a Hierarchy of Outsiders. Just powerful inhuman entities.
 
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pukunui

Legend
And I would disagree. She was not a deva. planetar or solar, (which you said "The devas, planetars, etc are more like the counterparts to balors, pit fiends, etc.").
We don't have stats for her as an angel, so we don't really know what she was before becoming an archdevil. That said, she's not identified as "Zariel, Angel Prince of Mt Celestia" or anything like that. She's just "Zariel, an angel". Sometimes a "mighty angel", sometimes just "an angel". I would not put her angelic form on even footing with Orcus or Levistus.

Actually they do, Asmodeus is considered a god in many cosmologies for example, so the parallel is obvious.
He stole his divinity during the 4e upheavals (at least in FR). He's certainly a bit of an exception to the rule, as it were.

No, for alignment reasons, all of these only serve good deities, but they have their own cohorts which I think can be specific as well as creatures corrupted/wrenched from the closest alignment planes.
I guess I'm still thinking in terms of the 4e cosmology, where angels weren't necessarily good, and all gods had angelic servants.

And again, not really, Good deities often have their own cohorts as well. I'm not exactly sure why you insist on a cosmic unbalance there, you can build a cosmology that way, but the creatures and designs also support a kind of balanced mirror hierarchies.
I'm not really pushing for "cosmic imbalance" so much as I'm proclaiming gods of murder and tyranny to be both nonsensical and redundant and therefore unnecessary. I think my question of why they exist in D&D has primarily been answered, though, and I shall feel no qualms about expunging them from my own homebrew cosmology.

4) Putting it All Together
Powerful Demons can't grant spells except to Warlocks by D&D's rules, therefor we need Evil Gods to do so in order to have evil clerics. Demons still exist as a hierarchical structure of enemies we can physically battle before Epic Levels which are a stand-in for actual Deities, even the Arch-Demons who cover the exact same domain. Thrown in with a hint of "Most DMs don't wanna RP Evil Gods for their players to slaughter and then have to redefine their campaign world around evil priests all losing power 'cause their god died".
Thanks for confirming my suspicion that the irredeemably evil deities of murder and tyranny and the like in D&D are largely there to fill a gap in the mechanics, as it were, and aren't really supported by (m)any real world belief systems.

Personal Note: Thank you for making me think about this, and what it should mean to the setting I'm working on. That is a massive help and it's going to make the setting just that little bit more different from standard D&D game settings. I do, deeply, appreciate it. I had previously decided that "Gods" in the setting would range from "Are they even real?" entities that exist outside of mortal experience in the whole Western Religious style as well as D&D Demons, Angels, and Elementals as Local Gods that can be physically defeated in the world. But now I'm going to be playing with the idea of a non-hierarchical demonry and angelry. Where a demon, no matter how "Weak", is just always an equal threat to the players, gaining "Levels" right along side them. Level 20 Imps and Lemures and Manes and Mariliths because there really shouldn't be a Hierarchy of Outsiders. Just powerful inhuman entities.
You're welcome!
 

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