D&D General D&D doesn't need Evil

Redwizard007

Adventurer
but why is the negative plane evil it should just be neutral? why do they turn to mindless killing machines other than someone programmed them that way?

Should it be, or is that just your preference? It's literally the anti-life plane. Unless you are using orange-blue morality that is usually portrayed as evil.

Why do they become mindless killing machines? Not sure, but it is the default. If you wanted to rewrite the rules to do otherwise that would be up to you.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
What's the name of the kingdom? I'll look it up.

If the DM made it up, then great for them! But that's homebrew.
Doesn't matter if it's homebrew or not. People can read rules and they played the game with non-evil orcs.
No, you've shown me one source, of a country that hasn't been mentioned by the game in decades, with invading orcs who were civilized by other people. Not orcs who weren't evil on their own.
I've shown two. And you're twisting things. Nobody "civilized" those invading orcs. They were civilized to begin with.
This is literally what I was talking about: "Which is basically saying that these groups of people are incapable of being not-evil unless a "better" people teaches them."
Except this is a Strawman creation of yours and yours alone. Not one that I ever said to you, or happened in the examples(plural) that I showed to you.
 

Mind of tempest

(he/him)advocate for 5e psionics
Should it be, or is that just your preference? It's literally the anti-life plane. Unless you are using orange-blue morality that is usually portrayed as evil.

Why do they become mindless killing machines? Not sure, but it is the default. If you wanted to rewrite the rules to do otherwise that would be up to you.
life is not exactly a good thing either so logically anti-life would be it equal opposite, horrible but in some other different none life-like manner.
I question the point of games companies say undeath is automatically evil hence my dislike of it.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
As the OP, let me try to steer this ship back on course...

Here's a revised idea:

In D&D, evil should be subjective.

Right now in D&D, evil is objective. It is in Alignment, in Spell Names, and embedded in rules such as the bite of a werewolf.
I don't see the objectivity in those things. Alignment is too vague to give any sort of objective definition to evil in 5e. Spell names don't have to be anything other than opinion. Hell, they don't even detect the things that they are in the name. Detect Evil and Good doesn't detect good or evil. It detects certain creature types regardless of alignment. The bite of the werewolf is written subjectively. It mentions evil, but doesn't define it.
Red Dragon (Intimidating, Greedy, Pyromaniac)
The problem is that those traits don't really tell me whether the dragon is good, neutral or evil. Even pyromania is just a mental illness that can be mitigated by a good creature who can just light fires in out of the way places that won't hurt people.

CE tells me much more about how to play the dragon. Better yet, CE(intimidating, greedy, pyromaniac) is fantastic. Together they are far greater than each individual part.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Sidebar but I'm curious how a concept I like to explore would work in your campaign.

I'm a struggling farmer. I have to work all day to tend the farm and support my wife and 12 young kids. I will do anything to protect my family. My buddy Steve, who happens to have powers involving life and death self me a death I durance policy. When I die, Steve will raise my body and allow my wife to use me on the farm to keep the family cared for. We all think it's a practical solution.

Is this evil?

I use a lot of "did it for the cause" undead in my campaigns. Guardians in mummy tombs aren't there because some evil guy forced them to. They gave their lives to eternally guard their leaders resting place willingly.

3e used to have non-evil undead (I believe they were instead called undying???) and I always felt like that was something that would happen in a world with pragmatists populating it.
Good undead go back to at least 2e. Not sure about 1e.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Have you ever actually had an argument anywhere close to “interminable” about alignment in person?

I know I haven’t, in the 25+ years I’ve been playing D&D and regularly discussing it with people.
In 38 years of playing D&D, I've been in about 10 heated discussions about alignment. 7-8 of them concerned paladins and evil acts, the remaining few dealt with forced alignment changes and the penalties that went along with it. I've been in zero that didn't concern mechanics in some way, and none where anyone was confused about what alignment meant.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
As someone else said, the adventure and session will provide most of the context for most NPCs regardless what you put on the statblock.
And that context makes the LE part unnecessary.

Beyond that, I know she keeps her word, doesn’t value others’ lives or freedom as a “good” in itself, is willing to work as part of a system/hierarchy, and combining my own life experience with what LE means, she probably has a visceral distaste for liars, and people who break rules, and is completely willing to hurt people for small “infractions” because she believes in the power of negative reinforcement.
Does that mean it? Lawful doesn't mean that one has to always keep their word or that they hate liars or rules-breakers. That's why devilish contracts are renowned for having loopholes, double-speak, and obsfucated phrasing. My own life experience with "LE" people (such as at my former workplace) suggests that they will do whatever the heck they want as long as it looks legitimate and can be justified to others, whereas "CE" people don't care about appearances.

About the only part here I agree with is being willing to hurt others for small infractions--but that's something that CE and NE people will do as well.

I looked up "what alignment is Darth Vader" and most people seem to think he's lawful evil--but he had no problem altering the deal (and telling others to pray that he doesn't altering it further). So, lying and rule-breaking right here. Has the internet lied to me?

And I'd say that the information you provided is barely enough to RP her. How does she act to the PCs? Does she play along with them and then abandon or betray them later on? Will she work with the PCs completely, no matter their goal, because she's "lawful" or will she try to stop them if she disagrees with them? Does she insist that they kowtow to her? Will she accept one of the PCs as the leader, or betray them? How small of an infraction will she punish, and how far is she willing to go? See, the answers to these actually both provide useful information and replace the need for an alignment.

To me, that shows that since we seem to disagree strongly on two out of the three aspects of what you consider to be LE, I think this goes even further to show that alignment is not actually helpful.

But assuming all the stats are provided: LE tells me if she gives her word on something she'll keep it, she probably values power and takes careful note of who outranks who (and by extension, where she fits in the pecking order). Her level and power (including availability and-or power of allies), relative to the party, will determine her approach: if she thinks she's in a position of power she might haughtily offer a bargain (which ends up in her favour, of course); while if she's clearly outgunned she'll have a getaway plan in place and use best tactics to defend herself while escaping. Location makes a difference as well: if the encounter is set in her home or lair her approach will be different than if she's met in a tavern or in the wild.

Howzat?
As with the "punishing infractions" from above, most of this works just as well for NE, CE, and LN beings. If our mage (who presumably is intelligent) here was one of those alignments, she's still going to value power, she's still going to take not of who outranks who, she's still going to have a getaway plan whether she's lawful or not. A low-Int chaotic or neutral evil creature might be more gung-ho, but once you get to above-average stats, nah. The only real difference between alignments here is that after her sudden but inevitable betrayal, a LE person might view killing the party as a chore that needs doing and the CE person might have more fun with it. Maybe. And I still disagree that "lawful" means "honest," for reasons stated above.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
And that context makes the LE part unnecessary.
For you. You don't get to declare it unnecessary for others. There are some who will find that it is necessary to run the encounter.
I looked up "what alignment is Darth Vader" and most people seem to think he's lawful evil--but he had no problem altering the deal (and telling others to pray that he doesn't altering it further). So, lying and rule-breaking right here. Has the internet lied to me?
No, internet hasn't lied to you. Alignment has just never been a straightjacket. Vader being LE doesn't mean that he can't step outside of things and alter the deal from time to time.
 

Scribe

Legend
Indeed, which is why I prefer to look at the label "Lawful" not as a hard definition, but as a preference for structure.

A code.
An order.
A government or society, above an individual.
A religion.

All would be 'Lawful' in contrast to the opposite of those things.

I do believe that there is an issue in saying "I wish for a system, but I do not wish it applies to me." however to me that is the distinction between selfless/"Good" and selfish/"Evil".

People need to look at the labels as Generalizations, more so that objective definitions. Without context provided by society and our individual place and experiences within that society you cannot define such things, for all people.

Freedom Fighter or Terrorist?
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
Doesn't matter if it's homebrew or not. People can read rules and they played the game with non-evil orcs.
In that case, the alignment isn't needed in the first place.

I've shown two. And you're twisting things. Nobody "civilized" those invading orcs. They were civilized to begin with.
You showed me one. You kept claiming there was more than one, you never replied with the names of more than one place. Although to be fair, the last time I asked, the thread closed before you could respond.

And the orcs weren't not-evil until they settled down with humans. Before that, they were evil mercenaries. The FR wiki page for Thesk even says "The Orcs decided to settle in the country, becoming "civilized", and the people of Thesk grew to accept them." Where did those orcs come from? They were sent from Zhentil Keep, home of the notoriously evil Zhentarim. And, well, there has been no official writing on Thesk in 20 years, but it would be really interesting to see if any NPC Thesk orcs detailed were good or neutral.

You have yet to show me any places where orcs chose non-evil without being influenced by humans or other non-evil races.

No, internet hasn't lied to you. Alignment has just never been a straightjacket. Vader being LE doesn't mean that he can't step outside of things and alter the deal from time to time.
But that makes alignment pretty useless. So far, nothing about people's descriptions of lawful evil have been unique to it, it only provides "likely to behave this way," and doesn't actually do anything that isn't also done when actually describing the NPC. It means that you have to read the same info twice.

But what alignment does do is encourage people to play "always evil" races, and it encourages the game to continue to produce "always evil" races.
 

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