D&D 5E What Would Your Perfect 50th PHB Class List Be?

[doctorbadwolf]

I like Wizards as trades workers. That’s good stuff.

 

[Minigiant]

I wouldn't be opposed to the wizard being split

However I would prefer the wizard have their spell listed more generalized and more... what's a good word for it .. flattened?

Basically I would prefer most of the technical, specialist, and flexible spells to be removed from the wizard base list and force wizards to take specializations to get them.

All the psychic spells, sword magic, fey summons, fiend summons, advance elementalism, complex illusions, advanced charms, and bestial transformations would be in the sorcerer, warlock, artificer, and swordmage classes.

I don't like a Necromancer class as it would be too narrow. But of D&D brings back Nethermacy, I would okay with a return of the Shadowcaster

 

[Aldarc]

I wouldn't be opposed to the wizard being split

However I would prefer the wizard have their spell listed more generalized and more... what's a good word for it .. flattened?

Basically I would prefer most of the technical, specialist, and flexible spells to be removed from the wizard base list and force wizards to take specializations to get them.

All the psychic spells, sword magic, fey summons, fiend summons, advance elementalism, complex illusions, advanced charms, and bestial transformations would be in the sorcerer, warlock, artificer, and swordmage classes.

I don't like a Necromancer class as it would be too narrow. But of D&D brings back Nethermacy, I would okay with a return of the Shadowcaster

When Paizo was was creating its separate magical traditions for Pathfinder 2 - i.e., Arcane, Divine, Primal, Occult - they tried to move spells around where they made more thematic sense. However, even among their own staff, there was a lot of resistance any time spells were taken out of the Arcane list and taken away from Wizards. It's hard to imagine that the same wouldn't be true, if not more so, for D&D.

Edit: A bit of a visual for what Pathfinder 2 was going for, keeping in mind that these were more thematic guidelines than hard bound rules.

Spoiler

 

[Remathilis]

When Paizo was was creating its separate magical traditions for Pathfinder 2 - i.e., Arcane, Divine, Primal, Occult - they tried to move spells around where they made more thematic sense. However, even among their own staff, there was a lot of resistance any time spells were taken out of the Arcane list and taken away from Wizards. It's hard to imagine that the same wouldn't be true, if not more so, for D&D.

Edit: A bit of a visual for what Pathfinder 2 was going for, keeping in mind that these were more thematic guidelines than hard bound rules.

Spoiler

Part of the issue here is that the wizard is both a generalist AND eight specialists. It made sense when wizard was the only magic using class to stick all magic into them, but with 5 arcane classes now all fighting for niches, it doesn't.

The solution is twofold. 1. Get rid of the school specialists. Spread them over the other casters so that wizards aren't focused on a single school. Then you give wizards a smattering of the most common spells, but leave the more focused for the new specialist classes. Wizards might get a good high level attack spell, but nothing that meets the raw damage of meteor swarm or horrid wilting, which become exclusive to elementalists and necromancers respectively.

Of course, this assumes a strong niche protection is built in from the get go and lots of new one-class-exclusive spells, but it's the best fix for it.

 

[Minigiant]

Part of the issue here is that the wizard is both a generalist AND eight specialists. It made sense when wizard was the only magic using class to stick all magic into them, but with 5 arcane classes now all fighting for niches, it doesn't.

The solution is twofold. 1. Get rid of the school specialists. Spread them over the other casters so that wizards aren't focused on a single school. Then you give wizards a smattering of the most common spells, but leave the more focused for the new specialist classes. Wizards might get a good high level attack spell, but nothing that meets the raw damage of meteor swarm or horrid wilting, which become exclusive to elementalists and necromancers respectively.

Of course, this assumes a strong niche protection is built in from the get go and lots of new one-class-exclusive spells, but it's the best fix for it.

The issue is less the base wizard list and more that when new nondivine no nature spells are introduced or added, if there isn't a bunch of other Arcanists... the wizard gets them all.

 

[squibbles]

Part of the issue here is that the wizard is both a generalist AND eight specialists. It made sense when wizard was the only magic using class to stick all magic into them, but with 5 arcane classes now all fighting for niches, it doesn't.

The solution is twofold. 1. Get rid of the school specialists. Spread them over the other casters so that wizards aren't focused on a single school. Then you give wizards a smattering of the most common spells, but leave the more focused for the new specialist classes. Wizards might get a good high level attack spell, but nothing that meets the raw damage of meteor swarm or horrid wilting, which become exclusive to elementalists and necromancers respectively.

That's a cool idea!

This isn't quite what you suggested, but maybe they could treat school specialists as shared multiple-class subclasses in the vein of the strixhaven UA, and then have a list of specialist spells that work like cleric domain spells but go up to 9th--with most or all of the spells being exclusive to said subclasses.

So, there'd be bard enchanters and druid enchanters, sorcerer conjurers and wizard conjurers, and so on--while war magic, bladesinging, scribes, would stay wizard exclusive.

Of course, there'd need to be some redesign of all the affected classes, so that the change wouldn't do too much violence to game balance.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Barbarian
Bard
Cleric
Druid
Fighter
Monk
Paladin
Ranger
Rogue
Sorcerer
Warlock
Wizard

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Part of the issue here is that the wizard is both a generalist AND eight specialists. It made sense when wizard was the only magic using class to stick all magic into them, but with 5 arcane classes now all fighting for niches, it doesn't.

The solution is twofold. 1. Get rid of the school specialists. Spread them over the other casters so that wizards aren't focused on a single school. Then you give wizards a smattering of the most common spells, but leave the more focused for the new specialist classes. Wizards might get a good high level attack spell, but nothing that meets the raw damage of meteor swarm or horrid wilting, which become exclusive to elementalists and necromancers respectively.

Of course, this assumes a strong niche protection is built in from the get go and lots of new one-class-exclusive spells, but it's the best fix for it.

That's an interesting fix, but I think the fix that respects the history of the game and makes the wizard more interesting and distinct is;

1. Give the Wizard their signature features sooner. Spell Mastery should be a tier 2-3 feature, maybe 5th or 6th level at the latest, that gives you one spell of each spell level, roughly at half the rate that you learn new spell levels (so you don't get a level 2 spell mastery until you learn level 4 spells), that lets you make that spell always prepared, and you can cast it without a spell slot 1/day. Max out at a level 5 spell around endgame. Signature spell should come in around level 11, with a single 1st level spell, and then gain a level 2 signature spell around 17, and an additional 1st level at 18.

2. Make subclass hit more thematic notes via the mechanics of the class. That is, each subclass should have an additional set of signature spells, or a set of spell from outside the wizard spell list that they automatically learn.

3. Rebalance the low level features to bring the weakest of them up at least close to the level of Evocation School, if not Bladesinging or Divination. I think more people would play Illusionists and Conjurers if the level 2features were as good as other traditions.

4. (optional) Bring in some features or new spells that allow the wizard to support the team in a very wizard way, like making all melee attacks in a zone do extra elemental damage, or putting a gravitational node on an enemy so ranged attacks against it have advantage or do extra damage, etc. Give the Wizard an AC team buff spell. Don't give these to anyone else, except maybe one or two to the Bard.

4a. Give Wizards the explicit ability to spend time researching new spells, rather than having to always find them as loot. Frankly I think any spellcaster should be able to invent new spells and the wizard should just be better at it, but let Wizards actually sit in thier tower or a library or whatever, figuring outhow to make themselves blurry for a while.

4/4a are optional mostly because they involve digging into the mechanics a lot more. The others aren't any more work than they've already done for other classes.

 

[Remathilis]

That's a cool idea!

This isn't quite what you suggested, but maybe they could treat school specialists as shared multiple-class subclasses in the vein of the strixhaven UA, and then have a list of specialist spells that work like cleric domain spells but go up to 9th--with most or all of the spells being exclusive to said subclasses.

So, there'd be bard enchanters and druid enchanters, sorcerer conjurers and wizard conjurers, and so on--while war magic, bladesinging, scribes, would stay wizard exclusive.

Of course, there'd need to be some redesign of all the affected classes, so that the change wouldn't do too much violence to game balance.

Assuming they could have found a way to make multiple subclasses, that would have worked too.

If I was starting "from scratch", this is what I'd consider.

Take the eight schools of magic and ask "what kind of caster excels at this?" Then assign them to either Artificer, Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock or Wizard. There would a solid core of spells that all these classes share (detect magic, dispel magic, scrying) but after that, no spell belongs to more than two caster classes, ideally only the one.

Artificers are buffers, transmuters, and have a smattering of healing and attack spells. Much of thier magic would focus on making things or people better.
Bards get the best enchantments and illusions, with a secondary emphasis on healing. They're magic is people magic.
Sorcerers are your blasters, with elemental magic, shapechanging, and some conjuration magic at their disposal. Sorcerers are in-your-face magic, with some occasional defensive magic to protect themselves.
Warlocks are all about the creepy: necromancy, summoning, fear, darkness, and necrotic damage. It would take some rejiggering of the thier caster-mechanic, but warlocks are your dark emo-casters.
Wizards are jacks-of-all-trades, masters of none with a slight emphasis on divinations or abjurations. They can blast, but not as efficiently as a sorcerer. They can raise skeletons while warlocks conjure ghouls. They can charm people while the bard dominates them. Etc. Their advantage is versatility, and I'd realistically give them something more akin to metamagic that allows them to be versatile.

Would it work? Eh, who knows. Currently, if I want to play a necromancer I have plenty of options (undead warlock, shadow sorcerer, necromancer wizard) but they all don't feel complete. I'd like to see a little more niche protection and identity in which classes get what spells.

 

[Minigiant]

Assuming they could have found a way to make multiple subclasses, that would have worked too.

If I was starting "from scratch", this is what I'd consider.

Take the eight schools of magic and ask "what kind of caster excels at this?" Then assign them to either Artificer, Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock or Wizard. There would a solid core of spells that all these classes share (detect magic, dispel magic, scrying) but after that, no spell belongs to more than two caster classes, ideally only the one.

Artificers are buffers, transmuters, and have a smattering of healing and attack spells. Much of thier magic would focus on making things or people better.
Bards get the best enchantments and illusions, with a secondary emphasis on healing. They're magic is people magic.
Sorcerers are your blasters, with elemental magic, shapechanging, and some conjuration magic at their disposal. Sorcerers are in-your-face magic, with some occasional defensive magic to protect themselves.
Warlocks are all about the creepy: necromancy, summoning, fear, darkness, and necrotic damage. It would take some rejiggering of the thier caster-mechanic, but warlocks are your dark emo-casters.
Wizards are jacks-of-all-trades, masters of none with a slight emphasis on divinations or abjurations. They can blast, but not as efficiently as a sorcerer. They can raise skeletons while warlocks conjure ghouls. They can charm people while the bard dominates them. Etc. Their advantage is versatility, and I'd realistically give them something more akin to metamagic that allows them to be versatile.

Would it work? Eh, who knows. Currently, if I want to play a necromancer I have plenty of options (undead warlock, shadow sorcerer, necromancer wizard) but they all don't feel complete. I'd like to see a little more niche protection and identity in which classes get what spells.

Rather than giving classes whole schools, I would prefer to see the return of subschools. For example with Illusion.

Sorcerers would excel at Figments as they can power out stronger light and sound shows.

Bards would get the best Glamor as their magic fools others senses easier.

Warlocks would excel Shadows as they are often tied to extra planar beings like fey, fiends, aberrations, and undead.

Psion would get the best Patterns as they can program effects to beam into others minds.

Wizards get the best Phantasms because they can tap into the minds of others but they have little control over what the target perceives. They just cast a spell to push your Fear or Love button in your mind.

Or maybe the other way around for Psions and Wizards. Depends how ya feel

Basically everyone gets illusions but different types.