D&D General Lorraine Williams: Is it Time for a Reevaluation?

[Mannahnin]

Common, I don't doubt it. Not unethical? I mean, if you don't want to do business with folks around here, you can say that in public, but otherwise...

Overall, we have precious little evidence that TSR would have done any better under Gygax, given his dubious choices at the time.

It also bears mentioning that this was an age before the internet and relatively easy polling and customer feedback. Learning what the market was really like was extremely difficult, so making correct decisions was rather more luck than understanding, I expect. Neither Gygax nor Williams could be said to really know what they were doing with the new industry.

Ironically, TSR had in 1982 acquired a company which had famously good market research/customer feedback. Some interesting details of that company, and about how pre-Williams TSR treated them at the link below:

SPI Died for Your Sins

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

My jaw dropped when I heard that during 2e's era, TSR was lining up a deal to get the rights to Tolkien's Middle-Earth and the sticking point that caused it to fall apart was that the Tolkien Estate (or maybe it was Saul Zaentz?) wouldn't allow new fiction to be published by TSR, and for Lorraine Williams that was a dealbreaker.

Had they gotten their way, I can't imagine that history would've looked back kindly on TSR's Middle-Earth novels. But to think, had they added Middle-Earth to their roster of settings, what could have been (probably even more people arguing whether Gandalf, Elminster, or Raistlin would win in a fight)...

But thought lots of people associate the final days of TSR with Lorraine Williams, there is a heck of a lot that went right before then. Forgotten Realms, Spelljammer, Planescape, and many more.

Lorraine doesn't get the credit she deserves for saving the company but the blame assigned to her for TSR failing is totally fair. Lorraine made several bad decisions that rendered TSR incapable of adapting to a changing market or

The more I hear and hear about Flint Dille, the more inclined I am to believe that he habitually overstates both his contributions and his competence.

Her brother was also brought in at times, because of the Buck Rogers stuff.

 

[Parmandur]

How much do they play test what they put out now?

Extensively and systematically. Hundreds of tables have played through everything WotC publishes today.

 

[Voadam]

How much do they play test what they put out now?

Extensively and systematically. Hundreds of tables have played through everything WotC publishes today.

Not quite hundreds of tables that I can see but certainly a lot.

Opening up Curse of Strahd to the credits page it looks like ~44 names under playtesters with a bunch having asterisks to indicate the credited individuals that provided feedback for a whole group.

 

[el-remmen]

I ran across an ad for this on the back cover of a 1993 issues of Dungeon and it made me wonder what version of the "History of D&D" it includes. Not to mention, I can't help but think of it as one of the weird excesses of the 90s. "We're gonna publish an anniversary 'collector's edition' catalog we charge $10 for!"

Anybody have this?

 

[LordEntrails]

We have a TSR employee reporting as copied here at ENWorld that they didn't playtest most of what they put out in those years.

Did you notice his disclaimer right at the top of that post? Here' let me quote it for you;

Keep in mind that except where I say I witnessed things or was told them by Lorraine, these are essentially rumors (but fun nonetheless).

The above is at the top of the post that has been referred to as proof of Lorraine's "badness". That post is all gossip with the intent of making fun of Lorraine That's exactly what the Mike says it's about. Degenerating someone he does not like. And you want to use it as 'proof'?

And reading the post, very little actual factual information or events are provided. Heck, just read Mike's first encounter with Lorraine, se accidently knocked him over and apologized profusely. His response? Was to avoid her at all costs. Hmm, sounds like Mike was a very forgiving and accepting person.

(Note, no idea what the quote says it's coming from Morrus.)

Her creepy brother was slinking around the company doing the same.

Now there is no doubt that you have zero objectivity on this topic.

You want this to be evidence that she was fighting the good fight about girls in chainmail bikinis.

I'm that one that raised that as a possibility. A possibility, not evidence. And what evidence do we have f this conversation? Quotes from several people that they heard rumors about what happened. From people who have stated their comments were intended to make fun of Lorraine. Yea, lets hope you see the challenge with such sources.

It's the disparate treatment that people are taking issue with.

Exactly.

LW was able to obtain her leadership role at TSR because of money she inherited, not money she earned. Maybe it's not completely fair, but this changes my view of hardships that she faced in the business world

How does inherited wealth lessen the discrimination we now she faced?

Sure, inherited wealth is going to change how I view someone's opinion on the cost of buying a Mercedes, or a vacation. But hardships due to bigotry against them, nope. Not for me.

 

[LordEntrails]

I'd like to clarify two points.

First, I'm talking about people who are no longer active in creating content (e.g. dead, incapacitated, or removed from the industry and public eye). It's a different story for people who are currently trying to sell their product while also espousing venomous rhetoric. And even in cases where someone does continue down the bad path, I don't think you have to feel shame for enjoying the works before they went there. It's okay to say you enjoyed "Vornheim: The Complete City Kit" while also vowing you'll never buy anything from that author again.

Second, well, these are all just my opinions. There's a reason I said "we should" and not "ENWorld unanimously agrees".

I get it. And it's why I said I wasn't passing judgement. In all honesty, I'm not sure how I should view people, and if I should separate their social behavior from their creative (or other aspects of what makes us human). I think we have to, in some cases with some sort of reasoning. You've stated yours, and maybe it's one I'll adapt for myself.

 

[Mordhau]

Extensively and systematically. Hundreds of tables have played through everything WotC publishes today.

Most of the stuff they put out for public playtest can't be playtested properly.

It's what a month between release and survey? That's not enough time for an extensive playtest. That seems more like an opinion poll.

I don't know how much in-house playtesting they do, but whatever it is that would be the real playtesting.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

They were doing playtesting under Lorraine, at least in the periodical section, since every Dungeon magazine listed the playtesters for that issue. On the other hand, it appears they were not actually staff (but I assume they were paid - it frequently included a pre-hiring Chris Perkins).

 

[LordEntrails]

Most of the stuff they put out for public playtest can't be playtested properly.

It's what a month between release and survey? That's not enough time for an extensive playtest. That seems more like an opinion poll.

I don't know how much in-house playtesting they do, but whatever it is that would be the real playtesting.

WotC does, or at least at the time of DoMM, do not only in house play testing, but private testing with a various groups of people they can trust to keep NDAs. I believe they are all credited in the playtest credits mentioned earlier in this thread.