D&D General Are Hit Points Meat? (Redux): D&D Co-Creator Saw Hit Points Very Differently

D&D co-creator Dave Arneson wasn't a fan of hit points increasing with level. According to the excellent Jon Peterson's Playing at the World he felt that hit points should be fixed at character creation, with characters becoming harder to hit at higher levels.

Of course, this is an early example of the oft-lengthily and vehemently discussed question best summarised as ‘Are hit points meat?’— a debate which has raged for over 40 years and isn’t likely to be resolved today! (but no they’re not)

Arneson's Hit Points for Characters

Game Wizards is very decidedly not a book about who invented which system in D&D. But early drafts of the book did track one design choic...

playingattheworld.blogspot.com

Arneson later created a hit point equation in his 1979 RPG Adventures in Fantasy which was a game in which he hoped to correct "the many errors in the original rules".

 

[Jaeger]

I categorically reject the idea the DnD players will not allow changes to the game (or we'd all still be playing Basic) ...

It's good that I made no such claim then. Because I agree!

I said:

while some things about the game have changed, we all know that there are certain sacred cows that D&D designers cannot touch without risking fanbase revolt

"Risking" being the key word there.

A large part of the player base will revolt if it is perceived that things have gone too far. Or if the changes do not bring about the fun they want.

If versions of DnD contain a thing and players like it / it makes the game better, it tends to stick around. CF ascending AC, races separate form classes, nonmagical healing, balanced classes, bards as a based class, warlocks, et al.

All true. Yet there is a point where the game designers can go too far.

We saw that with the schism around 4e. And the fact that it was well balanced, and did some things rather well had nothing to do with why so much of the player base rejected it.

With 5e the game is now just as, if not more, popular than it has ever been.

An alternate take I could see is that crits and some other effects only inflict a small amount of wound damage normally, so you can have wounds occuring occassionally that can trigger effects that only make sense if serious injuries are caused.

• If you score a critical hit, you deal 1 wound damage.
• If a character becomes bloodied (has lost more than half his total vitality) by an attack's damage, he takes 1d4 (or also just 1) wound damage.
• If a character has no vitality points remaining or is subject to a coup-de-grace, he takes the listed damage directly to wounds.
• Falling damage: Make relevant ability/skill check to slow or catch your fall to reduce the effective height of the fall in half. For every full 10 ft you fall after adjusting for the check, you suffer 1 point of wound damage, plus 1d6 point of vitality damage (to a maximum of Height to reach terminal velocity d6). If you failed the check, you suffer an additional d6 wound damage. (Wound damage may be adjusted by character size class - d4 for small, d8 for large?)

If wounds = constitution, you can probably not build around trying to get 8+ crits in a fight (at least not without also removing the target's vitality points), and a single lucky crit isn't going to do anything serious.

I like the ideas here...

I have been toying with how to to a Hit Points / Wounds mechanic and I think an adaptation of your ideas may work for me...

• If you score a critical hit: You roll damage vs HP, and do 1 Wound damage.
• If a character becomes bloodied (has lost more than half his total Hit Points) by an attack's damage: He takes 1+1d4 Wound damage.
• Once Bloodied a (Hit points are less that half the PCs HP total) all further critical hits do wound damage.

I'd have wounds be 1/3 of HP. Your falling rules seem fine.

I think that this would preserve the buffer that HP gives to dying, and Crits would only get really deadly once HP has been reduced by 1/2.

It would be a very different game of "D&D". But I think worth a playtest or two...

 

[Maxperson]

Even Gygax said that they were more like "Points until you are hit."

He explicitly said they were both physical and abstract in the 1e DMG.

1e DMG Page 82,

"It is preposterous to state such an assumption, for if we are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of damage, we must similarly assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts before being slain! Why then the increase in hit points? Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage - as indicated by constitution bonuses- and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the "sixth sense" which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection."

And,

"Therefore, let us assume that a character with an 18 constitution will eventually be able to withstand no less than 15 hit points of actual physical damage before being slain, and that perhaps as many as 23 hit points could constitute the physical makeup of a character. The balance of accrued hit points are those which fall into the non-physical areas already detailed."

 

[Ancalagon]

Falling damage is one of the most egregious cock ups in the rules IMHO. It doesn’t take any account of momentum. The dice should scale with size (being a rough equivalent to mass).

So:

Tiny, no damage.
Small, Xd4
Medium, Xd8
Large, Xd10
Huge, Xd12
Gigantic, Xd20
And X should scale more rapidly. (hand wave ).

I agree completely with you dice scaling for falling damage, and I've implemented something similar to your rulest (my main disagreement is that tiny is no damage, but whatever).

However, this does not change my example - perhaps the PC would have to be level 6 instead of 5 but...

 

[Krachek]

He explicitly said they were both physical and abstract in the 1e DMG.

1e DMG Page 82,

"It is preposterous to state such an assumption, for if we are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of damage, we must similarly assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts before being slain! Why then the increase in hit points? Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage - as indicated by constitution bonuses- and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the "sixth sense" which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection."

And,

"Therefore, let us assume that a character with an 18 constitution will eventually be able to withstand no less than 15 hit points of actual physical damage before being slain, and that perhaps as many as 23 hit points could constitute the physical makeup of a character. The balance of accrued hit points are those which fall into the non-physical areas already detailed."

When you build a concept you are more likely to apply it smartly, rather than theorize.

 

[R_Chance]

You can argue the meat vs. expertise / luck thing all day. I know I've done it I have come up with a few things that, for me, rationalize HP a bit more.

Combat and damage: In combat HP work as normal unless you are totally surprised (flatfooted). Then the damage is multiplied by your level (the level of the character taking damage, not giving it out). Being surprised really sucks. Area attacks are normal because you are assumed to be taking actions to avoid damage (i.e. down behind your shield when the dragon's breath / fireball goes off, holding your breath when you see the gas, etc.). Unless you are surprised (and the time it takes a mage to cast a spell pretty much eliminates total surprise).

Healing: Healing requires a save to recover damage each day. You recover your level in points when you make it. This, roughly, equalizes healing times although higher level characters better saves give them an advantage. There are modifiers for conditions to the save of course (healers skill, bed rest, fetid unhealthy conditions, etc.). I would say in a "long rest" in 5E terms (8 hours if you, the DM, are being evil). Healing spells can be adjusted to give X points / level of character.

Falling damage: The type of dice damage is based on what you fall on. Loose sand / water etc. = D3, dirt = D4, Packed earth / stone = D6, Jagged surfaces = D8, and spikes etc. = D10. The number of damage dice taken goes up geometrically, 10' =1, 20' = 2, 30' = 4, 40' = 8, 50' = 16, and 60'+ = 32. Saving throws are allowed for half damage. Jumping down negates the first 10' of the drop and there are various modifiers to the saving throws. Rolling down slopes modifies the distance, depending on the degree of slope. Falling long distances sucks although you might survive it.

Things like this have allowed me peace when using D&Ds abstract hit point system. Ymmv.

 

[Vaalingrade]

That is only because you hear a million times the story of that single guy who survived 12 stabbings, while the other thousands who died of a single stab just make a small line in the news.

It's the same misinformation mechanism that still make a lot of people believe gambling is convenient (and let's stop at gambling to avoid being banned).

The point is that people aren't water balloons filled with blood like high grit games seem to think. Living things are a lot more resilient than they're given credit for, largely because - ironically - pop culture where anyone who isn't a main character dies, goes unconscious or ambiguously drops when you tap them.

 

[AtomicPope]

Agreed, the games like Call of Cthulhu where characters are much more mortal don't increase them at all.

Call of Cthulhu is more like a boardgame than a standard RPG where the game is designed to kick players out.

 

[Lanefan]

I agree that was a fundamental problem of the wound and vitality system as implemented back then.

An alternate take I could see is that crits and some other effects only inflict a small amount of wound damage normally, so you can have wounds occuring occassionally that can trigger effects that only make sense if serious injuries are caused.

• If you score a critical hit, you deal 1 wound damage.
• If a character becomes bloodied (has lost more than half his total vitality) by an attack's damage, he takes 1d4 (or also just 1) wound damage.
• If a character has no vitality points remaining or is subject to a coup-de-grace, he takes the listed damage directly to wounds.
• Falling damage: Make relevant ability/skill check to slow or catch your fall to reduce the effective height of the fall in half. For every full 10 ft you fall after adjusting for the check, you suffer 1 point of wound damage, plus 1d6 point of vitality damage (to a maximum of Height to reach terminal velocity d6). If you failed the check, you suffer an additional d6 wound damage. (Wound damage may be adjusted by character size class - d4 for small, d8 for large?)

If wounds = constitution, you can probably not build around trying to get 8+ crits in a fight (at least not without also removing the target's vitality points), and a single lucky crit isn't going to do anything serious.

But you have the chance of taking some minor wounds before you run out of vitality, which gives you some game mechanicical support for the fiction saying that you took some injuries in a fight without requiring you to run out of all vitality points. Depending on how hard it is to restore wounds and what other effects being wounded causes, you also have a dial to define what long-term effects wounds would have in your game.

There's some interesting thoughts here. Thanks for this.

Wounds = constitution IMO perhaps gives too many WP. Maybe half-con.? In our system, at roll-up you roll a small die (d4 to d6, depending on species; Humans are a d5) with your Con providing a "floor" (e.g. with average Con a 1 on any die size here becomes a 2; with high Con a 1 or 2 becomes a 3); and that's your Body Point total, pretty much locked in for life. Fatigue Points are the ones you get by levelling; thus a 1st-level character has a few BP plus the normal amount of FP, and note these extra few hit points haven't reduced low-level lethality in the slightest!

We have death at -10 and the 0 to -9 range are also all BP.

A typical commoner has the usual BP as its hit points but often that's it, some lucky ones have 1-2 FP as well. (this is a really nice side effect of the BP-FP system that covers a rather gaping hole in 1e, it explains how commoners can sometimes take a hit from something and not immediately drop dead but also quite realistically implies that such a hit always does full-meat damage)

The big deal with BP is that once lost they are much harder to rest back naturally and cure spells are less effective (i.e. use a smaller die) at healing them.

One idea I just had for falling: maybe for every 20' you fall 10% of the rolled damage goes to wounds? (which neatly means that at 200' - the height at which fall damage maxes out - all the damage goes straight to wounds; and falling suddenly becomes much more (realistically) dangerous!)

And you can make poison and similar effects a special mechanic that only applies when you inflict a wound to someone, and design and balance them level accordingly.

I think this overly guts poison, on first reading.

 

[Lanefan]

I have been toying with how to to a Hit Points / Wounds mechanic and I think an adaptation of your ideas may work for me...

• If you score a critical hit: You roll damage vs HP, and do 1 Wound damage.
• If a character becomes bloodied (has lost more than half his total Hit Points) by an attack's damage: He takes 1+1d4 Wound damage.
• Once Bloodied a (Hit points are less that half the PCs HP total) all further critical hits do wound damage.

I'd have wounds be 1/3 of HP. Your falling rules seem fine.

I think that this would preserve the buffer that HP gives to dying, and Crits would only get really deadly once HP has been reduced by 1/2.

While things like this look great on paper, in practice I've learned it's simplest and easiest for all involved if 99.9% of the time WP/BP damage doesn't start until you're out of VP/FP. The only exceptions would be (attempted) coups-de-grace, some poisons, and rare occurrences such as limb loss.

It would be a very different game of "D&D". But I think worth a playtest or two...

It would indeed.

One thing to consider (and it can take a lot of considering, sometimes!) is how this all works for monsters and non-levelled foes; what ratio of BP to FP does a Dragon have, say, or a Giant or a Vampire or a Gray Ooze. For some monsters it's dirt simple to figure out, for example a Zombie wouldn't know a Vitality or Fatigue Point if it walked up and introduced itself. For others, though, it can be a real thought exercise.

 

[Stalker0]

While things like this look great on paper, in practice I've learned it's simplest and easiest for all involved if 99.9% of the time WP/BP damage doesn't start until you're out of VP/FP. The only exceptions would be (attempted) coups-de-grace, some poisons, and rare occurrences such as limb loss.

It would indeed.

One thing to consider (and it can take a lot of considering, sometimes!) is how this all works for monsters and non-levelled foes; what ratio of BP to FP does a Dragon have, say, or a Giant or a Vampire or a Gray Ooze. For some monsters it's dirt simple to figure out, for example a Zombie wouldn't know a Vitality or Fatigue Point if it walked up and introduced itself. For others, though, it can be a real thought exercise.

I’d add falling damage to that list but otherwise I agree, the exceptions should be rare