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darjr

I crit!
I would bet it will never come close to touching the numbers Hasbro/WotC want.

Totally anecdotal so YMMV:

In my experience it is typically the dedicated D&D gamers who will dip their toes in, or divide their time with the Magic side of things.

Magic players Generally seem to get what they want out of MtG, and have no desire to give D&D a look.

While I understand the desire to merge these two groups, IMHO it is tilting at windmills. The corporate suits who do not play the games, fail to understand the fundamental differences between the two fanbases,

It'll take a while for them to clue in...
The president of WotC does play the game. Both of them.

However I find it hard to believe they want to merge the games as closely as your afraid of. I do think they want some, but look at the MTG D&D settings, there isn’t any significant change to mechanics to make it more like magic, it’s pretty much bog standard D&D 5e magic.

Same goes for the Magic D&D sets. No significant changes to the mechanics. Just some light touches.
 

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Scribe

Legend
I do think they want some, but look at the MTG D&D settings, there isn’t any significant change to mechanics to make it more like magic, it’s pretty much bog standard D&D 5e magic.

Same goes for the Magic D&D sets. No significant changes to the mechanics. Just some light touches
I don't think that mechanics are the concern.

At a crunch level they are as similar as swimming, and billiards.

Both maybe have the word 'pool' somewhat related, or 'fantasy', but the similarities run thin after that.

The concern is a shared multiverse, IMO.
 

Jaeger

That someone better
I find it hard to believe they want to merge the games as closely as your afraid of.

I'm not talking about "merging" the games.

I'm referring to them trying to get more crossover of players/customers with the core player base of MtG to D&D.
 

Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
I would bet it will never come close to touching the numbers Hasbro/WotC want.

Totally anecdotal so YMMV:

In my experience it is typically the dedicated D&D gamers who will dip their toes in, or divide their time with the Magic side of things.

Magic players Generally seem to get what they want out of MtG, and have no desire to give D&D a look.

While I understand the desire to merge these two groups, IMHO it is tilting at windmills. The corporate suits who do not play the games, fail to understand the fundamental differences between the two fanbases,

It'll take a while for them to clue in...

I mean, this is probably true; WotC isn't going to get most MTG players to play D&D.

That said, AFR being their best-selling set OF ALL TIME certainly points to more sets. Probably won't be standard, but I can see them leveraging the D&D brand to help sell more non-standard sets.

The suits may not understand the games (and some of them do honestly), but this seems like a pretty obvious way to get more $$$ that has little obvious detrimental consequences.
 

Scribe

Legend
I mean, this is probably true; WotC isn't going to get most MTG players to play D&D.

That said, AFR being their best-selling set OF ALL TIME certainly points to more sets. Probably won't be standard, but I can see them leveraging the D&D brand to help sell more non-standard sets.

The suits may not understand the games (and some of them do honestly), but this seems like a pretty obvious way to get more $$$ that has little obvious detrimental consequences.
Yeah if it had been a commander set, I dont think people would have blinked.
 

Jaeger

That someone better
I think far more of it is applicable than not. It perfectly matches my experience with modern players.

Imperfect communication on my part - Applying the general ideas to RPG design vs adopting the specific CRPGs implementations...


The spell slots are too restrictive, the spell descriptions too restrictive, class, levels, etc are all too restrictive for that kind of play to be viable. But that's still where the game pushes play to go. Making most things trivial with skip buttons littered throughout the game and monsters drastically undertuned compared to PCs.

I agree that many of these players would be better served with a system like: Age of Sigmar: Soulbound.

But D&D is the market leader, and for the majority if RPG groups; close enough is good enough.

In my opinion:

Other than being the least complex WotC edition of D&D, which has worked in WotC's favor; there is nothing inherent in the actual design of 5e that is responsible for the massive upswing in the popularity of D&D.

It is a pop culture phenomenon that WotC marketing has been savvy enough to ride the wave of to unbelievable sales numbers.


But different people find different things fun. I think it's fun to be challenged in a game. Apparently the vast majority of survey respondents do not. At all. Hence the cakewalk tuning of 5E.
I think they realized that there are at least 10 players for every 1 DM and so catered to their main audience...the players.

A classic failure to protect players from themselves.

The overwhelming majority of players are Normies to whom D&D is a past time; not a hobby.

Normies don't work for their entertainment. That's why Normies rarely have hobbies; hobbies require work from participants while pastimes do not.

Normies generally don't buy RPG stuff. GM's are the hobbyists that buy the product.

Tabletop RPGs require work, which is foisted off by Normies to the Game Master; he is generally the sole hobbyist in a group and thus it is he that puts in the work to make and keep the game going. While the Normies who make up the bulk of the players do nothing more than show up, play the game, and then leave to do something else until next time.

I am lucky in that most in my Sunday group are also hobbyists. We have three people that have GM'd different systems at various times.

Yet even when we ran a short campaign of 5e, how many actually bought the books out of 5 people? Just me.

IMHO - giving disproportionate weight to the desires of players that are not the majority demographic that actually buys the product, and not giving equal weight to GM concerns/desires who do make up the majority demo that actually buys the books is a long term mistake that will come back to bite them.

I think that the blistering success of 5e is sending the designers a false market signal that a lot of these new players will become long term hobbyists.

Hence the gradual shift in 5e marketing from attracting back all the old guard that left D&D in the 4e era with a less complex edition, to now explicitly catering to the new player base gained in the past few years to the near exclusion of other concerns.

And that is not to say that anything really bad will happen to D&D, or that it will no longer be the market leader when the boom ends. Just that the downturn after the boom will be bigger than they estimate, and they may have to make more of a design course correction than they anticipate.

The current momentum will keep things going for a while though.


If our visions of fun are too different, we find other people to play with who match up better with our expectations. If our visions are similar enough to warrant ironing things out, then we do. There's no group that "has to" play with a given DM and no DM who "has to" run for a given group.

Exactly.

Voting with your feet is the path to happy gaming.


The president of WotC does play the game. Both of them.

As a past time, not a hobby. There is a big difference between the two.
 


Bupp

Adventurer
Commander Legends: The Battle for Baldur's Gate is the official name.

Just going to touch on some of the subjects tucked into here.

I've never much cared for canon. Way back when I started DMing, I always thought of it as my version of Greyhawk, not Greyhawk. I have always described anything that is published is what is generally assumed to be the truth, but often those sources are sketchy, unreliable, or just downright wrong. Other times they are dead on.

I'm not going to yuck anyone's yum. I like all different flavors.
I've had great games counting every coin of weight to make sure we're not encumbered, and making plans to get back to the dungeon to clear out what we couldn't haul out the first time.
I'm also enjoying the super hero powered PC's of 5e, to the point that in my homebrew world PCs and other certain individuals in the world are what is known as "Adventurers". People with special abilities that can do things that normal people can't.

Even with this superhero feel, it's still easy enough to give your players a good ol' smack down. Just throw out the encounter building guidelines. :LOL:

To me, Magic and D&D are intertwined, and always have been. In fact, I consider my World of Eska to be a plane of the Magic Multiverse, and not part of the D&D Multiverse. I borrow heavily from Magic lore, but I also have a lot Star Wars lore mixed in as well.

WotC is big into their surveys. With the open playtest, they built the game that people wanted, and keep steering the game within the bounds that those surveys.

I started a game in Ravnica back in early 2020. Unfortunately, 2020 ate that group.
 


darjr

I crit!
As a past time, not a hobby. There is a big difference between the two.
Besides that this is a blatant "moving the goal posts" from "Does not play the games" to "it's only his pastime" violation. I don't get the difference? Especially when it comes to D&D. But never mind that.

From this article "From little kid to president of the company, Wizards of the Coast leader stays in the ever-evolving game"

"It’s a privilege to work on something that was so foundational to you and the person you developed into,” Cocks said. “When I started playing ‘D&D,’ I really didn’t know how to tell stories. It inspired me to read. It inspired me to start writing and designing. Being able to go work at a company that [makes] not only a product you really enjoy, but something that had such a profound impact on your life … I think that’s pretty cool. It’s a story that’s not just unique to me. I think it’s common across a large percentage of our employees."
 

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