D&D General Railroads, Illusionism, and Participationism

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Yes, in that having and using that knowledge is a skill that players learn and non-players don't.

Ah, that's cool the, if to do "skilled play", you only need to know which dice to roll, the bar is not that high. I somehow thing that the other proponents of "skilled play" might not agree with you... :p

This is a different issue, in that technical play and storytelling play aren't necessarily opposed to each other.

Actually they are, it's a question of state of mind and where your focus is. They are not incompatible, it's just that if you insist on technical resolution of situations, you will abide by the technicalities and the story has to follow. So if they coincide, that's great, but it's not always the case. If you insist on story, then the technicalities will bend when necessary, but I don't have the impression that you are ready to do this in your campaign (which is cool if that is what your table prefers).
 

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Actually they are, it's a question of state of mind and where your focus is. They are not incompatible, it's just that if you insist on technical resolution of situations, you will abide by the technicalities and the story has to follow. So if they coincide, that's great, but it's not always the case. If you insist on story, then the technicalities will bend when necessary, but I don't have the impression that you are ready to do this in your campaign (which is cool if that is what your table prefers).
They really aren't as opposed as you claim them to be. Like, nowhere near it. I am 100% a huge 4e fan, and thus like what you call "technicalities." But I also know that the designers themselves talked about ways to address gaps between expectations and rules that involved changing the "technicalities." Like the Dragon magazine article where they explicitly said that reskinning powers not only can but should include doing things like dropping or changing keywords if they make better sense and aren't simply being changed to squeeze out extra power. (You know how it is--some folks will try to abuse any rule of this nature for optimization, not because they actually care about story.) They very specifically gave the example of a Wizard or Sorcerer specialized in ice and cold magic, wanting to adapt a cool (heh, funny) fire power so that it would fit their icy theme. As long as the motive isn't squeezing out extra power, the actual official rules of 4e for doing that are "absolutely, have at it!"

As a very simple example, the "Bag of Rats" rule/principle for 4e powers. It doesn't make sense, narratively, to carry around a bag of rats and use a power that targets "a creature" in order to get the benefits thereof, even though the "technicalities" as you put it would theoretically support that behavior. Hence, the Bag of Rats rule: you have to be actually engaged in a meaningful conflict to use those powers. No infinite healing from stabbing a captured monster, doesn't matter what the power text says.

Or for another, less-formal example, tons of official and unofficial advice about Skill Challenges very explicitly says you should work with your players to help them use their powers in creative, off-label ways. I've seen a Barbarian use a rage power (one associated with stampeding horses) in order to get an extra boost to jump over a lava pit, and I personally have used a Sorcerer fire cantrip (specifically burning spray) to avoid being tricked by an oasis-mimic monster (it died rather...unpleasantly when set on fire), two examples from entirely different campaigns. These uses have nothing whatever to do with the official, formal uses of these powers, which are well-defined in what you call the "technicalities," but rational extrapolation from them enables a much richer experience so...why wouldn't you do that?
 
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They really aren't as opposed as you claim them to be. Like, nowhere near it. I am 100% a huge 4e fan, and thus like what you call "technicalities." But I also know that the designers themselves talked about ways to address gaps between expectations and rules that involved changing the "technicalities." Like the Dragon magazine article where they explicitly said that reskinning powers not only can but should include doing things like dropping or changing keywords if they make better sense and aren't simply being changed to squeeze out extra power. (You know how it is--some folks will try to abuse any rule of this nature for optimization, not because they actually care about story.) They very specifically gave the example of a Wizard or Sorcerer specialized in ice and cold magic, wanting to adapt a cool (heh, funny) fire power so that it would fit their icy theme. As long as the motive isn't squeezing out extra power, the actual official rules of 4e for doing that are "absolutely, have at it!"

Actually, this is not what they say. A Dragon Magazine Article does not make things official, for once, and when you look at published rulebooks, they tell things very differently:
  • The famous page 42 of the DMG that @pemerton likes to quote never says whathe think it says, it talks about giving a +2 circumstancial modifier, casting action as a check and improvising damage (which is a silly thing because it scales damage for things like a fire according to the power of the user, so being thrown in the same chimney by a lvl 1 and a level 30 multiplies the damage by 3). And that's all it says.
  • About the reskinning, why not as long as it's not for power, I agree with you, but I would hardly call this "story".
  • And about house rules, it's also a formal process including writing it up.
And actually, while that style of play is cool if you like it, it certainly does not cover @pemerton changing on the fly the rules of grappling so that a Boss like Ygorl has to use skill checks to get rid of a pesky hanger on. While that is cool and is certainly story orientated, the problem is that it sets a dangerous precedent for teleportation, in a system where everything is codified. So what will happen next time ? Will people, players and monsters/NPCs be able to hold on through teleportation or not ? How can they know what to rely on when, instead of a complete rule system that leaves no hole in the technicalities, you poke a hole like this ?

And this in addition to the fact that the proponents of "skilled play" will probably not be really happy with gimping a boss like Ygorl like that. Was it even a real challenge ? How can they be sure that they beat it through their power and wit and not through a DM's "say so because it's cool" ?

Don't get me wrong, I've been through that play style although it's not my preferred one now, but you have to have your objectives clearly in mind. As a 4e fan, I hope you'll what I mean, which is not derogatory in any sense, when we played it, the sentiment of "we beat it fair and square" was really important, central to the game design. Unfortunately, it's not my preferred style, but there were lots of good things in that edition about balance and a complete system.

As a very simple example, the "Bag of Rats" rule/principle for 4e powers. It doesn't make sense, narratively, to carry around a bag of rats and use a power that targets "a creature" in order to get the benefits thereof, even though the "technicalities" as you put it would theoretically support that behavior. Hence, the Bag of Rats rule: you have to be actually engaged in a meaningful conflict to use those powers. No infinite healing from stabbing a captured monster, doesn't matter what the power text says.

Never heard of that rule but it makes sense to prevent technicalities being abused, but I'm not sure what it means in the context of this discussion. This is not about story, it's about not abusing the writing of rules.

Or for another, less-formal example, tons of official and unofficial advice about Skill Challenges very explicitly says you should work with your players to help them use their powers in creative, off-label ways. I've seen a Barbarian use a rage power (one associated with stampeding horses) in order to get an extra boost to jump over a lava pit, and I personally have used a Sorcerer fire cantrip (specifically burning spray) to avoid being tricked by an oasis-mimic monster (it died rather...unpleasantly when set on fire), two examples from entirely different campaigns. These uses have nothing whatever to do with the official, formal uses of these powers, which are well-defined in what you call the "technicalities," but rational extrapolation from them enables a much richer experience so...why wouldn't you do that?

Because 4e is not built that way, all the advice that you are mentioning is mostly unofficial, even the DMG 2 only offers a bonus to a skill check (because, in the end. it's the skill roll that matters for the count). Moreover, the powers are not calibrated to use that way, how do you regulate encounter power usage for example ? And the reason for that is that 4e was built to be fair and balanced, if you start introducing things like this, you start favouring some classes over others in a system that does not have other balancing mechanism. Of course you can do it, but then, if that is what is important to you, there are editions which are much more freeform. This is why there is still a large difference between 5e and 4e with your very minor changes, or even with @pemerton's large derailments.
 

Actually they are, it's a question of state of mind and where your focus is. They are not incompatible, it's just that if you insist on technical resolution of situations, you will abide by the technicalities and the story has to follow.
Which is kinda like real life, in that no matter what "story" one's life ends up telling it all has to abide by the physics of the world we live in.

The technicalities are, to me, the abstract realization of the physics of the game world.
So if they coincide, that's great, but it's not always the case. If you insist on story, then the technicalities will bend when necessary, but I don't have the impression that you are ready to do this in your campaign (which is cool if that is what your table prefers).
By bending the technicalities, do you mean something like this:

Situation A: Joe the Fighter is fleeing an opponent in a night-time rooftop chase. He reaches a gap over a street and tries to jump it; [it makes little real difference to the story whether Joe succeeds or not] so you work out the variables, assign DC 15 to the jump, and have him roll. He succeeds, and gets away.

Situation B: Joe the Fighter is fleeing the same opponent on the same rooftops as last night. He reaches the same gap and tries to jump it; [this time the story really needs Joe to get away as he's got vital information for the mission] so you tell him he succeeds without a roll and gets away.

Is that what you mean?
 

Which is kinda like real life, in that no matter what "story" one's life ends up telling it all has to abide by the physics of the world we live in.

Yes, because in our real world, the rules of physics are unbending to concepts like story.

The technicalities are, to me, the abstract realization of the physics of the game world.

And it's fine - especially since I know that you have started from physics to build your understanding of how the game world works - because your aim is to have a consistent set of rules. But it's not my aim, my aim is to tell fine stories, in the spirit of the genre, and most of the books/movies/shows of the genre bend things like physics because it looks cooler to do so, and in any case as it's the DM who decides the exact circumstances of the world, it does not really matter.

Neither of us is wrong here, we are both playing D&D, just with different objectives in mind.

By bending the technicalities, do you mean something like this:

Situation A: Joe the Fighter is fleeing an opponent in a night-time rooftop chase. He reaches a gap over a street and tries to jump it; [it makes little real difference to the story whether Joe succeeds or not] so you work out the variables, assign DC 15 to the jump, and have him roll. He succeeds, and gets away.

Situation B: Joe the Fighter is fleeing the same opponent on the same rooftops as last night. He reaches the same gap and tries to jump it; [this time the story really needs Joe to get away as he's got vital information for the mission] so you tell him he succeeds without a roll and gets away.

Is that what you mean?

Not completely, see another example below. I just want to point out that, in this case, it's the DM who visualises the scene and decides (probably by improvising) whether the gap is 5 feet or 20 feet wide. So it's not really a reason of "physics", all the more because after that it also depends if you are playing with "Rolling with it" or "ignoring the dice".

One of my good examples would probably @pemerton's fight with Ygorl. The rules of the game (and therefore the world, according to your interpretation) say that when you teleport, you shake off people grappling you. It's actually important because it's one of the only sure ways to get rid if grappling.

During the fight, because it was cool, @pemerton decided that the paladin could hang on, and that Ygorl therefore tried to teleport and manipulate the fluxes of chaos to damage the paladin (for me it's a stupid tactical move, in an edition that encourages "skilled play" if I'm not mistaken, especially since Ygorl only has only +25 in Arcana, and has +33 in an attack that immobilises the target until the end of Ygorl's next turn, plus many other really cool and dangerous powers).

So in the end @pemerton decided to break the rules of the world in order to serve a cool story, and I'm fine with this. There is just a danger that, after that, players will be confused about teleportation and what it usually does, in particular with their powers. What does it do if THEY are grappled, for example ?

Is that clearer ?
 


It seems to me that judging any game on the stated intent in its fluff sections is (at best) unreliable. It's very easy to say things about supporting creativity, skill, story creation etc. that 'sound right' or just 'seem like what you're supposed to say in those sections' without necessarily thinking through all the implications or reinforcing them mechanically. We should judge games by what they do, not necessarily what they say they do.
 

I find it very interesting how @Lyxen is arguing so specifically that 4e is only ever one thing that he thinks it is, while at the same time suggesting that B/X was about telling cool stories. The standards are flexible, depending on who's play is being discussed.
'The beauty of D&D is its flexibility and ambiguity which you can interpret in the way that's most fun for you, except for 4th edition that may only be read in the strictest, coldest, and least charitable way possible.'
 

I find it very interesting how @Lyxen is arguing so specifically that 4e is only ever one thing that he thinks it is, while at the same time suggesting that B/X was about telling cool stories. The standards are flexible, depending on who's play is being discussed.

And it's really interesting how much you need to strawman me to try and attack me. It's pretty pathetic, actually.

The only thing I've said is that, over the editions, there have clearly been varying design goals with the various editions, and that are therefore inherently more or less suited to certain play styles. What's the point of having a very formal and constrained game if you only want to tell a story ? However, if you want to play CaS, an edition with inherent balance and control of the options is inherently much better. After that, there might be other factors for preferring an edition, and I, for one, have always found a way to play the games I wanted whatever the edition, it's just that I found it more awkward with some, considering my type of game. But please feel free coming up with actual arguments instead of attacks like this.
 

It seems to me that judging any game on the stated intent in its fluff sections is (at best) unreliable.

This is why it's not the only thing that I'm doing, I'm also looking at the ruleset. But when designers are not idiots, which is honestly rarely the case, their stated design intent just permeates through the rules, and there is a congruence there. And it's particularly clear with 4e and 5e.

Also, there are clearly the RAW, but the RAI is really important as well, and this intent is discernable from the fluff. But I find interesting that people are arguing that they are right without reading the whole of the books. This is at best biased reading.
 

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