D&D General Railroads, Illusionism, and Participationism

[Ovinomancer]

I'd probably hate this. Or maybe I would like it as some sort of story creation game, but I wouldn't like it as an RPG. To me playing an RPG are a mostly about inhabiting the character. If the decisions the player makes and decisions the character makes are not connected, that seriously hampers that.

Well, good news, this doesn't describe Blades. I'm not a fan of AA's description of play or the claim of it being very narrow. The engine has been used for quite a number of genres -- like PbtA the engine is expected to be tweaked to match a genre. Saying Blades is narrow is like saying that D&D is narrow because you only run CoS. It's not well placed.

 

[Ovinomancer]

My take on it is that the underlying adventure is often almost irrelevant to what is happening at the table in any given moment, so why bother worrying about it.

Put another way: when looking at the moment-to-moment run of play maybe it's the adventures that are interchangeable, rather than the characters.

That's seems... I dunno. Odd? It doesn't make a difference at any moment of play if you're trying to restore the Ordning or if you need to defeat Strahd or if you need to end the death curse? This statement is very strange.

It may be all they ever get in 1e; my point is that it's also all they need.

Nope, hard disagree. This goes next to the printer.

If I'm going to play 1e, it's in spite of things like this, not because of them.

 

[pemerton]

I'm willing to give a bit on ideal play process to make that happen. The same reason why I was willing to deal with Martial Dailies. I can justify it and having fighters that feel worthy of the name are more important than play process for me. Then PF2 decided I no longer had to choose.

I know some people see anything that deals with character emotional states as meta. I disagree.

I tend to see martial encounter and daily powers as trying hard. The precise rationing scheme is a bit arbitrary, but mostly I see it as the character, not the player, who is pushing themselves hard.

 

[Campbell]

I dunno. Privileging the diagetic over the non-diagetic for such mechanics seems to just be repackaging the Alexandrian's associated vs. dissassociated mechanics argument with slightly different wrapping paper.

It's a personal preference. It's also subjective. I realize what feels diagetic to me won't necessarily feel that way to others. For example Pathfinder Second Edition's Barbarian class can rage on demand, but it is fatigued a short while after. Some people view the daily rages as more diagetic. I disagree, but I can't say they are wrong to feel that way. It's also not wrong to have a preference for mechanics that are more focused on story structure. Not judging other people's play here. Just speaking to my own preferences.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, good news, this doesn't describe Blades. I'm not a fan of AA's description of play or the claim of it being very narrow. The engine has been used for quite a number of genres -- like PbtA the engine is expected to be tweaked to match a genre. Saying Blades is narrow is like saying that D&D is narrow because you only run CoS. It's not well placed.

I don't think the architecture of the game is necessarily inherently limited, I know FitD has been used as a basis for other games. Blades itself is simply intended to address a very specific milieu, that's all. So, if people look at specifically what happens in a BitD game, they may think there is some inherent limitation in the approach. Like its Grand Daddy, PbtA, FitD seems well suited to a lot of things. I think PbtA may be a bit more generally adaptable in some respects, but maybe not. It has certainly been used for a LOT of games at this point! Both of them have, actually.

 

[darkbard]

I don't think the architecture of the game is necessarily inherently limited, I know FitD has been used as a basis for other games. Blades itself is simply intended to address a very specific milieu, that's all. So, if people look at specifically what happens in a BitD game, they may think there is some inherent limitation in the approach. Like its Grand Daddy, PbtA, FitD seems well suited to a lot of things. I think PbtA may be a bit more generally adaptable in some respects, but maybe not. It has certainly been used for a LOT of games at this point! Both of them have, actually.

I think Blades play, both orthodox RAW and its short, freely available expansions, allow for a much wider range of genre and tropes than you imagine, @AbdulAlhazred.

In one game, @Nephis and I played a Cult, whose primary objective was to heal the fracture between the realms of the living and the dead by bringing forth our goddess, a Raven Queen analogue, into the world.

Later, when those primary PCs were sacrificed in the cause of the Crew's agenda, we played a short-lived game of Vigilantes, NPCs betrayed and disgusted by our original Crew, seeking to exact vengeance upon the various cults that have been preying upon young mystical prodigies as conduits for bringing their forgotten gods into the world.

Now, we're playing a Crew of Inspectors, True Detective- style investigators of the murders and disappearances in the orbit of these child abductions in Doskvol. While these latter two games do involve slight additions/alterations to the rules set, they are far more along the lines of 4E's introduction of a variant resource management for Psionic characters in PHB3 than a true hack, retaining nearly all the architecture, if slightly reskinned in places, of the original Blades in the Dark.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think Blades play, both orthodox RAW and its short, freely available expansions, allow for a much wider range of genre and tropes than you imagine, @AbdulAlhazred.

In one game, @Nephis and I played a Cult, whose primary objective was to heal the fracture between the realms of the living and the dead by bringing forth our goddess, a Raven Queen analogue, into the world.

Later, when those primary PCs were sacrificed in the cause of the Crew's agenda, we played a short-lived game of Vigilantes, NPCs betrayed and disgusted by our original Crew, seeking to exact vengeance upon the various cults that have been preying upon young mystical prodigies as conduits for bringing their forgotten gods into the world.

Now, we're playing a Crew of Inspectors, True Detective- style investigators of the murders and disappearances in the orbit of these child abductions in Doskvol. While these latter two games do involve slight additions/alterations to the rules set, they are far more along the lines of 4E's introduction of a variant resource management for Psionic characters in PHB3 than a true hack, retaining nearly all the architecture, if slightly reskinned in places, of the original Blades in the Dark.

Sorry, I don't mean to get into a nitpicky debate with people whom I agree with on a wide range of game design and aesthetic issues. OTOH this is still the same milieu, and it is a fairly narrowly drawn one overall. Each group is modeled as a 'crew' in effect, etc. Now, I think games like D&D are also pretty niche, so don't feel bad, though D&D does allow for a wider range of environments and situations, it is AT LEAST as narrow in overall genre, and its leveling and class systems are pretty rigid.

 

[Scott Christian]

Optimism is the triumph of hope over experience.

And experience is the triumph over ignorance.

 

[darkbard]

Sorry, I don't mean to get into a nitpicky debate with people whom I agree with on a wide range of game design and aesthetic issues. OTOH this is still the same milieu, and it is a fairly narrowly drawn one overall. Each group is modeled as a 'crew' in effect, etc. Now, I think games like D&D are also pretty niche, so don't feel bad, though D&D does allow for a wider range of environments and situations, it is AT LEAST as narrow in overall genre, and its leveling and class systems are pretty rigid.

Oh, I don't feel bad in the least; this point is a matter of analysis, not emotion for me. I just know there is a contingent of readers, both participants and lurkers to this thread, who will look at your framing of Blades games as being constrained by a "very specific milieu" as an aspersion and point of stark distinction from D&D. If you want to equate the milieus of BitD and D&D, I have no issue with that, though I personally would frame it differently.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Also, a game having a narrow scope is not a bad thing. It usually means that it is specialised to do that thing well.