D&D General "Poison", and spells that change it: Spirit of the rules v letter?

[Greenfield]

I'm running a game right now. We're using D&D 3.5 rules, but this is an opinion question so it should be independent of versions.

An Assassin is trying to stir up trouble in a mining community, to enflame frictions between the miners and the iron-workers. He snuck into a smithy and added salt to the smithy's quenching tank.

For those unfamiliar with the craft, if salt gets infused into metal it becomes nearly impossible to weld anything to it. That would include pattern-weld used in folded steel, or pressure weld to affix two different metals together. (Think of carbide-tipped chisels, as an example). The smith can see the effect, in that the flames around the affected metal flare green from the sodium.

The effect is called "Poisoning the weld". When metal is heated to red hot, then quickly cooled in the quenching tank to harden it, salt gets infused in the process and the result is called "Poisoned".

Now the question comes up: Would spells like Neutralize Poison do anything? It's not a living thing, and salt isn't normally a "poison", but if magic follows intent more than hard rules of logic and physics...

BTW: I know that not every alloy is subject to salt poisoning. I used this strictly for story purposes rather than strict chemistry, as a neat application of the Assassin's signature move. Not worried about an argument on how badly "poisoned" it would actually get.

So, would the magic follow the spell's normal function, which is to eliminate "poison", or would it fail?

Similar question: Would Neutralize Poison work to detoxify poisoned food or drink?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'd allow someone familiar with smithing to use neutralise poison to fix it.

 

[Bayushi_seikuro]

I don't know that I'd allow Neutralize Poison to fix the material. I would think that Mending or a similar magic would be what you would use for that. Again, the smith would definitely know that something's not right with his forging process which may make combatting the sabotage easier.

I would, however, allow someone maybe to use Purify Drink to 'cleanse' the quenching tank of the saline content quickly.

 

[Greenfield]

I don't know that I'd allow Neutralize Poison to fix the material. I would think that Mending or a similar magic would be what you would use for that. Again, the smith would definitely know that something's not right with his forging process which may make combatting the sabotage easier.

I would, however, allow someone maybe to use Purify Drink to 'cleanse' the quenching tank of the saline content.

In D&D 3.5 Mending fixes tears and breaks in small items. This isn't exactly that sort of damage.

But let's look at the Purify idea, since it kind of exemplifies what I'm talking about.

Wine or beer contains alcohol, which is technically a "poison".: Drunkenness is handled with the poisoning rules in many editions.

Some would have Purify turn wine into grape juice. Others might have it improve the blend by removing the Ethyl alcohol from the mix. (Most alcoholic beverages have a bit of both Ethyl and Methyl alcohol in there. One of those makes people blind and/or dead.) Someone else might rule that the spell doesn't do anything unless the wine is intentionally poisoned.

And all of those are right. Rather than acting like physics, always doing the same thing whether you like it or not, magic is flexible, doing what we want most of the time.

Which takes me back to my question: Can you un-poison an inanimate object, such as a plate of food, a pitcher of ale, or a bit of poisoned metal?

PS: Cleansing the tank is easy. Just change the water.

 

[ad_hoc]

By fantasy logic my answer is yes.

By D&D logic best to look at the rules for an Iron Golem and see if they are immune to poison. If they cannot be poisoned then metal cannot be poisoned.

For me fantasy logic would trump D&D logic in this case.

 

[Greenfield]

Well Golems can't be poisoned, per se. But in this odd instance, raw metal can. Sort of.

But you have to admit, it's kind of neat for an Assassin to find a way to sabotage something with the trademark move of poisoning it. (Yeah, I am kind of patting myself on the back there. So sue me. )

 

[Ovinomancer]

As a 'well actually' pure molten salt has been used to quench steel for the last 50 or so years. Brine, or salt water, has been used for quenching for 1,000's. It's better for some applications, in fact. The concept of poisoning the weld is one I've never encountered, and I couldn't find anything on it with a google search for that term or any similar construction. Be interested to see where that comes from! Anyway, the general concept here isn't part of our world, but could absolutely be part of a fantasy world. In which case, I think some form of purification would be needed, as poisoning is being used figuratively and not literally.

 

[MarkB]

Personally, my answer would be "no". You don't get to treat something as poison just because somebody's used the word in a colloquial phrase. If a person breaks up with their lover because a third party was whispering falsehoods and "poisoning him against her", would Neutralise Poison heal their relationship?

 

[Tonguez]

I’d require alchemy skill to treat the iron myself.

can you tell us where the concept of poisoning the weld comes from?

 

[Voadam]

In 3.5 I was pretty straightforward on spells as written

Neutralize Poison
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Brd 4, Clr 4, Drd 3, Pal 4, Rgr 3
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature or object of up to 1 cu. ft./
level touched
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw:Will negates (harmless,
object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)
You detoxify any sort of venom in the
creature or object touched. A poisoned
creature suffers no additional effects from
the poison, and any temporary effects are
ended, but the spell does not reverse
instantaneous effects, such as hit point
damage, temporary ability damage, or
effects that don’t go away on their own.
For example, if a poison has dealt 3 points
of Constitution damage to a character and
threatens to deal more damage later, this
spell prevents the future damage but does
not repair the damage already done.
The creature is immune to any poison
it is exposed to during the duration of the
spell. Unlike with delay poison, such effects
aren’t postponed until after the duration—
the creature need not make any
saves against poison effects applied to it
during the length of the spell.
This spell can instead neutralize the
poison in a poisonous creature or object
for the duration of the spell, at the caster’s
option.
Arcane Material Component: A bit of
charcoal.

So it neutralizes the poison in an object for the duration of the spell.

The big question then would be whether the salt in salt poisoning counts as poison here.

I might allow it, particularly as there is a campaign point of the assassin using poison thematically. So the smith would then have the 10 minutes per caster level to work the metal unpoisoned and then it would be poisoned again so they would have to work with those constraints.

In 4e it would be a fairly straightforward use of the arcana skill to modify the spell for such a sympathetic magic thematic nonstandard use. Arcana skill with something known to draw out poison might even be enough to do so without a spell.