D&D 5E Where's the Dump?

[Horwath]

@DND_Reborn agree mostly,
now I checked at roll20, having 8 STR even without armor is not a lot when you are carrying around 3000GP in coins.
It takes half of your capacity

 

[DEFCON 1]

Couple things I'd also point out...

1) I don't think there is really anything WRONG with having so-called "dump stats". Every single character class is going to have a stat they just don't care to raise up and there's nothing wrong with that.

2) Even when you have a "dump stat", that stat is still only like 1-4 modifier points lower than any other stat, so even your best stat is only 20% higher than your dump. So how bad is that dump stat really?

3) If you are a DM and don't like "dump stats" because you find everyone at your table is selecting the SAME stat to "dump" and you are bored with seeing that... might that be as much an issue of the kinds of things you call checks for? And what's more likely... WotC getting around to changing their own rules to inspire more uses of the so-called "dump stats"... or YOU as the DM changing the kinds of situations, encounters, and checks you make or call for that will use these "dump stats" so that your players no longer think dumping the same stat across the board is a good thing?

Now I understand every table is different and every group comes together in different ways where you might not as many choices and they will find their own issues. If your groups are all public Adventurer's League tables or online tabletop groups that come together when you as a DM just put a call out for any and all players and they all just show up with their PCs already made... then sure, you're probably going to have a larger amount of overlap if they are all choosing their options in vacuum. But isn't that just one of the issues you have to accept if you find you have to play in that fashion? If you can't or are choosing not to cultivate a group, then it's part of the deal that you're going to have to just play in a manner you might not prefer.

But if you have a home game or a game where the group makes choices about their PCs together, and they STILL are all forsaking the same ability scores... it seems to me it's because your style of DMing just doesn't require them to take them. If they know they aren't going to experience any situation when having one or more people with a high STR is necessary... who's fault is that? You can't get mad that your players are all dumping the same stats if you are running your game such that allowing for that dump is considered smart play. How many DMs who see their players dump INT are ones who also are beholden to the whole "Don't call for checks if there isn't a consequence for failure" thought process? Because I know for me personally who DOESN'T go along with that way of playing... I call for INT checks all the time to distribute information the characters may or may not know... which is why I don't see every character at my table dumping INT because they want that information when they can get it. Is there a "consequence" for not rolling a good INT check? If you don't consider not getting the information and being less informed about what's going on a consequence, then no... but if that's why you aren't calling for INT checks but are still annoyed that your table is dumping INT... that seems to me to be an issue of your own making.

But hey... maybe you will luck out and eventually WotC will change their rules to make STR and INT more enticing. But you'll just have to suffer in silence until that happens though, then, I guess.

 

[DND_Reborn]

@DND_Reborn agree mostly,
now I checked at roll20, having 8 STR even without armor is not a lot when you are carrying around 3000GP in coins.
It takes half of your capacity

Who the heck is carrying 60 lb. of gold!?! I've had PCs retire from adventuring with less.

If you're expecting that sort of loot, you have a mule nearby IME.

 

[DND_Reborn]

But hey... maybe you will luck out and eventually WotC will change their rules to make STR and INT more enticing. But you'll just have to suffer in silence until that happens though, then, I guess.

I refuse, Sir, to suffer in silence! My voice will be heard hollering from mountain top to mountain top, crying out against the injustice: no more dump stats, no more dump stats, no more dump stats!

Seriously, though, personally I don't have an issue with the idea of dumping a stat, what bothers me is that it is nearly always STR or INT.

The easiest solutions IME are:

1. Use the variant encumbrance rules (so STR 8 is limited to 40 lb., which is harder to deal with), and
2. Have INT modifier grant bonus skill proficiencies, so INT 8 and you LOSE one of your starting (typically) 4 starting skill proficiencies.

 

[TwoSix]

Shifting Paladin to STR/CON/CHA, changing Bard/Rogue and Sorcerer/Warlock, and from your descriptions of Warden and Artificer I think STR/CON/INT and STR/CON/WIS works.

Current Arrays:
STR, CON, INT = Artificer
???, ???, ??? = Avenger
STR, DEX, CON = Barbarian
DEX, WIS, CHA = Bard
STR, WIS, CHA = Cleric
CON, INT, WIS = Druid (Your druid works)
STR, DEX, INT = Fighter
DEX, CON, WIS = Monk
STR, CON, CHA = Paladin
STR, DEX, WIS = Ranger
DEX, INT, CHA = Rogue
CON, INT, CHA = Sorcerer
STR, CON, WIS = Warden
CON, WIS, CHA = Warlock
INT, WIS, CHA = Wizard

Changes:
DEX, WIS, CHA = Bard
DEX, INT, CHA = Rogue

This focuses Rogues for both Arcana and Investigation, along with CHA for Deception, Intimidation, and Persuasion.
Also, WIS works well for Bards with things like Insight, Perception, and Survival IMO, better than INT really.

Switch your Sorcerer and Warlock, so...
CON, INT, CHA = Sorcerer
CON, WIS, CHA = Warlock

That all looks good.

Leaving only the Avenger, which you didn't describe, so that'll have to wait to tomorrow. The current arrays available are:

STR, DEX, CHA - This would be a good second choice.
STR, INT, WIS
STR, INT, CHA - This would be ideal if it fits Avenger?
DEX, CON, INT
DEX, CON, CHA
DEX, INT, WIS

DEX, INT, WIS works for Avenger. The Avenger is the vengeance paladin, mixed with some Batman, mixed with an anime samurai. Light or no armor, big weapons, lots of movement abilities and debuffs. It was actually the progenitor of the advantage mechanic, as its main damage mechanic was getting to roll 2d20s keep highest for attacks on isolated targets. The class used Wisdom for attacks, and had Dex and Int as secondaries, so it can definitely carry over.

STR, INT, CHA feels like a good fit for a Warlord class.

Trying to think what else could fit the other 4 arrays. Psion, maybe, or a soulknife class. Trying to the think of some other popular class tropes historically that might fit. Maybe cavalier for STR, DEX, CHA?

 

[jmartkdr2]

I refuse, Sir, to suffer in silence! My voice will be heard hollering from mountain top to mountain top, crying out against the injustice: no more dump stats, no more dump stats, no more dump stats!

Seriously, though, personally I don't have an issue with the idea of dumping a stat, what bothers me is that it is nearly always STR or INT.

The easiest solutions IME are:

1. Use the variant encumbrance rules (so STR 8 is limited to 40 lb., which is harder to deal with), and
2. Have INT modifier grant bonus skill proficiencies, so INT 8 and you LOSE one of your starting (typically) 4 starting skill proficiencies.

I recommend the opposite approach: make dumping other stats (dex and con in particular) easier, so players can choose what to be bad at.

If you succeed in making strength and Int un-dump-able, players will dump cha instead. You can play whack-a-mole with dump stats forever (since you need to put your lowest number somewhere). If you make no stat dumpable, everyone will have only 13's across the board, at which point ability scores become useless.

Players don't want to play dumb and/or scrawny characters in general - they just don't see a choice because they "can't" dump dex, con, or wis. (and charisma classes are fun).

 

[DND_Reborn]

DEX, INT, WIS works for Avenger. The Avenger is the vengeance paladin, mixed with some Batman, mixed with an anime samurai. Light or no armor, big weapons, lots of movement abilities and debuffs. It was actually the progenitor of the advantage mechanic, as its main damage mechanic was getting to roll 2d20s keep highest for attacks on isolated targets. The class used Wisdom for attacks, and had Dex and Int as secondaries, so it can definitely carry over.

Hmm... from your description I would think STR, INT, WIS would be better, but if you want DEX, INT, WIS, I'll take your word for it.

Yeah, I thought STR, INT, CHA would be a good fit for Warlord.

Updating those two we have:

STR, CON, INT = Artificer
DEX, INT, WIS = Avenger
STR, DEX, CON = Barbarian
DEX, WIS, CHA = Bard
STR, WIS, CHA = Cleric
CON, INT, WIS = Druid
STR, DEX, INT = Fighter
DEX, CON, WIS = Monk
STR, CON, CHA = Paladin
STR, DEX, WIS = Ranger
DEX, INT, CHA = Rogue
CON, INT, CHA = Sorcerer
STR, CON, WIS = Warden
CON, WIS, CHA = Warlock
STR, INT, CHA= Warlord
INT, WIS, CHA = Wizard

Leaving us these arrays:

STR, DEX, CHA
STR, INT, WIS
DEX, CON, INT
DEX, CON, CHA

STR, DEX, CHA could work for the Paragon class (originally by TheCosmicKid), but a Cavalier class would be nice.
DEX, CON, INT would be nice for some form of Bounty Hunter maybe.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I recommend the opposite approach: make dumping other stats (dex and con in particular) easier, so players can choose what to be bad at.

Sure, I've posted options to make DEX and CON "dumpable", WIS is already more dumpable than those two, but really unless you want good Perception and/or Survival, it isn't as necessary anyway.

If you succeed in making strength and Int un-dump-able, players will dump cha instead. You can play whack-a-mole with dump stats forever (since you need to put your lowest number somewhere). If you make no stat dumpable, everyone will have only 13's across the board, at which point ability scores become useless.

I don't consider putting a 10 in something dumping it, and that is normally my lowest score.

If I point-buy, 99% of the time start with 10's across the board and go from there.

If I have to use the standard array, 9/10 I'll drop the ASI +2 into the 8 and move on.

For me, I only consider a dump stat a "dump" if it results in a negative modifier. I know others might not view it that way, and just see your low scores (even 10 or above) as dumping.

 

[billd91]

The easiest solutions IME are:

1. Use the variant encumbrance rules (so STR 8 is limited to 40 lb., which is harder to deal with), and
2. Have INT modifier grant bonus skill proficiencies, so INT 8 and you LOSE one of your starting (typically) 4 starting skill proficiencies.

Additional suggestions:
3. All illusion saving throws are Intelligence saves. I'm not sure that's true in all places. But one of the biggest falldowns in general for 5e is letting too many saves still be based on Dex, Con, Wis.
4. Stop using Perception to help find secret doors and hidden places. Limit that to Investigation.
5. Stop allowing Acrobatics and Athletics to be interchangeable. Start using more Strength saving throws for things like grapple defense.

The solution to excessive dumping is to make all the stats have teeth. Players may still need to deal with a low stat and try to put it where it does the least damage to them, but they will be less likely to dump half their stats to 8 if it will bite them on the ass with more frequency.

 

[jmartkdr2]

For me, I only consider a dump stat a "dump" if it results in a negative modifier. I know others might not view it that way, and just see your low scores (even 10 or above) as dumping.

If that's your definition - just use a nicer array / point buy structure / rolling system so everyone starts with a 10 in everything.