D&D 5E A Compilation of all the Race Changes in Monsters of the Multiverse

Hussar · Jan 31, 2022

Cadence said:
I was under the impression some were claiming the game "wasn't designed to simulate anything or be realistic". So I can imagine all kinds of things the players might want to do in various situations. Do they need to ask about all of them as if they might not work? Or is it assumed that most things work like they do on earth unless called out otherwise?

Using the mechanics of any edition of D&D, tell me how long it takes to boil water.

I'll wait.

Oh, wait, the mechanics of any edition of D&D say absolutely nothing about how long it takes to boil water (or in fact, pretty much any physics type questions at all).

What do you think a simulationist game looks like? Do you really think a Sim based game is a physics engine? And, if you do think that, why one earth would you think D&D is a sim based game?

Hussar · Jan 31, 2022

Mordhau said:
Ok this I don't understand. If I point out that a system has certain optimal results that suggest certain outcomes people complain that it only applies to players who optimise.

But the whole issue of removing ASIs is also only necessary if players feel the need to optimise. If you don't care that you're Half-Orc doesn't have the optimal stat bonus for a Wizard, then nothing needed to be changed.

If the design didn't nudge people in certain directions, or it doesn't matter if it only applies to optimers, then what exactly was the case for change? Either the direction design nudges people matters or it doesn't.

Of course, it's not just optimising, it's also about easily identifiable synergies that make decision making easy, and in many cases match the art in books and the fluff as well. I think that's one of the main reason WotC held onto the design priorities they've had for so long. An absolutely flat list of options is not necessarily desirable for new players.

Of course people are right to see the design as impactful. Just look at this:

View attachment 150983
The most obvious synergies are overwhelmingly impactful. Half-Orc Fighters and Barbarians or Firbolg Druids absolutely dwarf the number of other classes for these races.

But, the thing is, you don't lose that by tossing ASI's. You absolutely can have the identical half-orc fighter with a +2 Str. There's nothing that prevents that. What you can ALSO have though, is a high Int orc too.

Where's the problem? It's not like ASI's being delinked from race suddenly means that you absolutely can never put the stat bonuses in exactly the same place you did before. It's just that you're no longer forced to.

Is that really the issue? That some people might choose to play the game differently?

Cadence · Jan 31, 2022

Hussar said:
Using the mechanics of any edition of D&D, tell me how long it takes to boil water.

I'll wait.

Oh, wait, the mechanics of any edition of D&D say absolutely nothing about how long it takes to boil water (or in fact, pretty much any physics type questions at all).

What do you think a simulationist game looks like? Do you really think a Sim based game is a physics engine? And, if you do think that, why one earth would you think D&D is a sim based game?

I thought there was a claim that games don't need to be realistic or simulate anything. I was trying to show that a game lacking any realism would be very bizarre.

I certainly don't want rules for every possibility (like boiling water) and don't think it's possible, or that anyone wants that. But when there are rules for things it feels like some versimilitude would be nice - that they make sense in the game world's fiction. And since the game world description can't possibly establish everything conceivable, much of that world's fiction will come from the real world.

If a 3rd grader has a chance of beating the world's strongest man in arm wrestling in the game, then it feels like something in the game world description should have laid that out, for example. If the player sets a fireball off to stop someone running away with a bunch of papers - it feels like there should be some game world reason that the papers don't have a chance of igniting on a failed save. etc...

Remathilis · Jan 31, 2022

Hussar said:
Using the mechanics of any edition of D&D, tell me how long it takes to boil water.

I'll wait.

Instantaneous, assuming you pass your spellcraft check.

Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 DMG p93:

Spells or spell-like effects with the fire descriptor are ineffective underwater unless the caster makes a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). If the check succeeds, the spell creates a bubble of steam instead of its usual fiery effect, but otherwise the spell works as described. A supernatural fire effect is ineffective underwater unless its description states otherwise.

Vaalingrade · Jan 31, 2022

Cadence said:
I thought there was a claim that games don't need to be realistic or simulate anything. I was trying to show that a game lacking any realism would be very bizarre.

I certainly don't want rules for every possibility (like boiling water) and don't think it's possible, or that anyone wants that. But when there are rules for things it feels like some versimilitude would be nice - that they make sense in the game world's fiction.

Again, the problem is that 'verisimilitude' has become the razor used for excising creativity, fun and fantasy from the game.

Cadence · Jan 31, 2022

Vaalingrade said:
Again, the problem is that 'verisimilitude' has become the razor used for excising creativity, fun and fantasy from the game.

What are the great examples of versimilitude ruining things?

For the worlds-strongest-humanoid being a Halfling, there are a number of ways to establish that in world so that it has versimilitude (in world consistency).

Have a picture showing someone 3' tall beating a muscular 7' at arm wrestling in the book.
Have a story in the book or in game of a halfling doing something normally associated with much larger humanoids and it not being remarkable to the observers.
Say in the section on strength that size and type of creatures has no relationship to physical strength.
etc...

With any of that warning the person playing the 20 str goliath should fully expect the random halfling they meet to be able to take them arm wrestling. Without it, and with decades of other versions of the game and a book series and movies playing halflings as much weaker, it feels to me like the player of the goliath who just bet his last money on being able to beat the halfling (and another party member using detect magic to see if there was any fishy business) have reason to be pissed when the halfling is just as strong and beats him.

Vaalingrade · Jan 31, 2022

Cadence said:
What are the great examples of versimilitude ruining things?

Fighters.

ASIs.

The 'square fireball' stupidity.

Cadence · Jan 31, 2022

Vaalingrade said:
Fighters.

? I missed that one. What are they doing that Conan or Cugel or Fafhrd weren't?

Vaalingrade said:
ASIs.

What fun are they ruining for reflecting what D&D has for 30+ years and much of fiction, that couldn't easily be fixed in world by just making it widely known that the physical ability traits have absolutely no connection to anything size/shape/weight related. It's fine if the sumo wrestlers can run like Usain Bolt if that's how the world works, but feels like kind of a big difference from our world that players might deserve a heads up about.

Vaalingrade said:
The 'square fireball' stupidity.

Why are magic fire spells a versimilitude problem? (I'd argue the stupidity is that if the book is on the ground it burns, but if I'm holding it in my hand it doesn't).

Mordhau · Jan 31, 2022

Hussar said:
But, the thing is, you don't lose that by tossing ASI's. You absolutely can have the identical half-orc fighter with a +2 Str. There's nothing that prevents that. What you can ALSO have though, is a high Int orc too.

Where's the problem? It's not like ASI's being delinked from race suddenly means that you absolutely can never put the stat bonuses in exactly the same place you did before. It's just that you're no longer forced to.

I answered all this before. You even liked the post so I would assume you read it.

Hussar said:
Is that really the issue? That some people might choose to play the game differently?

Really getting tired of this kind of naughty word.

Vaalingrade · Jan 31, 2022

Cadence said:
Why are magic fire spells a versimilitude problem

Precisely.

'Verisimilitude' when it comes to D&D discussions is a buzz word to reject things based on limited imagination and further limited understanding of actual reality.

People can't imagine a strong dude doing better than the 'guy at the gym' can, so fighters have to be limited to that for verisimilitude'.

People can't imagine a strong halfling even though they are a fantasy creature, so they just call them 'third graders' and use verisimilitude to make them worse at martial classes.

People think the game's representations are simulations of actual physics, so they calls spells 'square' because they fit on the grid instead of engaging their imaginations.

Verisimilitude is a parasite in the intestines of the game, contributing nothing while leeching away vital fantastical and game-practical nutrients.