D&D 5E (2014) Orcs and Drow in YOUR game (poll */comments +)

[Helldritch]

Of course. Again the issue is that some downplay the influence of the gods or their influence. So the Orc and Drow alignment don't match the story and logic of the storyteller in those instances.

In a world where gods are actually meddling in the affairs of mortals? It matches perfectly.

The problem like I said in many threads is halfway efforts. Taking something that might be taken serious and treating it nonchalantly, being lazy, or using shortcuts to make it easier or simpler. The seed of the problem was taking shortcuts of painting races in colors and cultural aspects without thinking much about it. But that's the point of this thread.

Yeah. The original skin color of the orcs was pink, with a pig head. Somewhere along the line this got change to match popular computer game and we got what we have now. As for the Drow, it is a point that I give you. They should have been albinos as they are under the earth (or at least a grayish color closer to white).

The source of this discussion is again many fans labelling races as "Typically Evil" or "Always Evil" without thinking about how that affects the race, their lore, and the internal logic of those playing.

I do think that thoughts were put into it. But not much. Remember that at the time, RP was in its infancy. The additions of gods and culture (or lack of) appeared later.

Typically or Always Evil Drow and Menzoberranzan doesn't make sense if you don't have Lolth messing with it half of every single day (divinity), the Drow being a powerful cult (society), or the Drow being mentally inhuman (genetics) or something similar..

Damn genetics. The Goddess Lolth is meddling with the drow society on a second per second basis through her clergy. She makes sure that any drow not "following" the edicts of chaos and evil are put to the test. And those who fail... become driders. Gruumsh does about the same on a smaller scale as he is not the only God of his pantheon and yet, all of his pantheons follow his edicts.

Depends. Old Warhammer was really bad and blatant.

It was and still is a satire of extreme fascism. The irony is that be it Orks, The Empire or the Elves, they are all bad societies. Only the Tyranids are doing exactly what they should do without claiming to be paragons of Justice and righteousness. (Orks should be fighting the chaos demons and their forces but end up fighting just about everybody because of their battle lust.)

Modern Warhammer pushes the "logic" of Orks and Greenskins forward enough that getting upset about them would be a matter of heavy ignorance of the IP and very tilted perspective.

Fully agree on that one.

 

[Plaguescarred]

In my game orcs and drows are typically evil. Most are, but there's always exception where few can be neutral with evil tendencies, rarely so with good tendencies and even more rare straight up good aligned.

(Yes i still use alignment tendency descriptor)

 

[Bitbrain]

Reply to Opening Post.

Orcs in my campaigns are of any alignment. Some are good, some bad. The orcish pantheon itself is one of the seven major divine families in my non-Dark Sun campaigns and is not considered an “Evil” pantheon.

As for drow, I’ve never cared for them, so they don’t exist in my games.

 

[Burnside]

What's the best option to select if you don't use Alignment at all?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Orcs aren't evil in Warhammer. At least not compared to other people in there.

Everyone is evil in Warhammer.

 

[Lyxen]

Of course. Again the issue is that some downplay the influence of the gods or their influence. So the Orc and Drow alignment don't match the story and logic of the storyteller in those instances.

That's a good point, but the lack of consistency of private tables should not be a reason to hit the game in itself.

The problem like I said in many threads is halfway efforts. Taking something that might be taken serious and treating it nonchalantly, being lazy, or using shortcuts to make it easier or simpler. The seed of the problem was taking shortcuts of painting races in colors and cultural aspects without thinking much about it. But that's the point of this thread.

The thing is that Gygax created the orcs 40 years ago with just the "dark = evil" thing in mind. 40 years later, although no one (I think) accuses him of racism, when seen through the lens of todays views, it's sure that the drow color draws looks, but I don't think it's a question of not thinking about it, it's just something that was not in people's radar at the time.

The source of this discussion is again many fans labelling races as "Typically Evil" or "Always Evil" without thinking about how that affects the race, their lore, and the internal logic of those playing.

Indeed, but again, are WotC to blame for what fans do without much relfection ?

Typically or Always Evil Drow and Menzoberranzan doesn't make sense if you don't have Lolth messing with it half of every single day (divinity), the Drow being a powerful cult (society), or the Drow being mentally inhuman (genetics) or something similar..

However, with that in mind, in an epic setting, it makes sense. And with Erelhei-Cinlu, where the presence of Lolth is less intense (seeing that there is competition in some Drow houses), the fact that it's far less strong and allows for more non-evil rows is logical as well.

Depends. Old Warhammer was really bad and blatant.

But orcs were always green...

Modern Warhammer pushes the "logic" of Orks and Greenskins forward enough that getting upset about them would be a matter of heavy ignorance of the IP and very tilted perspective.

It might be what is saving them, or maybe just the lesser visibility.

 

[Lyxen]

What's the best option to select if you don't use Alignment at all?

Then just to avoid discussion, have the drows be of distinctive color (not brownish dark), and orcs be their original color, and you should be OK. But if you don't have alignment, at least no-one can accuse you of having evil dark races. Not that it has caused me any problems around the world...

 

[Azzy]

In a world where gods are actually meddling in the affairs of mortals? It matches perfectly.

But not all of us play in the Forgotten Realms settings in which the gods are either meddlesome or objectively real.

 

[Lyxen]

But not all of us play in the Forgotten Realms settings in which the gods are either meddlesome or objectively real.

And that's fine, you are left with the options of creatures being genetically evil like the WH orcs, or of any alignment, just be careful of the combination of genetically evil and dark skin...

 

[John R Davis]

Nothing really changed. Since year zero in RPGs for me such cultures have typically been evil, with the odd individual breaking the mold.
Heroes need villains that are otherwise like themselves