D&D General Poll: How tough should 20th Level Fighters be? (MCU edition)

[d24454_modern]

I voted for hulk although 'in the big gap' also would be fair if we're just talking the measure of raw strength here, spiderman is strong but he isn't '20th level fighter strong' he leans more into the rogue stealth area of things IMO than a pure fighter, ability wise i think the fighter could cherry-pick abilities from the lower teirs, widow's hand to hand, hawkeye's skill with a bow (i know he apparently 'never misses' ever, so maybe not quite on hawkeye's level but at least above 'above average' abilities) steve's shield throwing abilities.

Personally i think fighters should get extra ways to wield weapons each inherent to the weapon like Cap's shield throwing, as a way to display greater skill and mastery of their weapons than the other classes, like being able to make a sweep with the greatsword to hit the five squares in front/to the sides of them all for half damage or striking the ground with a warhammer to make a small shockwave to trip foes, just as standard attacks.

And thor is just the fighter fully equiped with magic items.

Spider-Man is miles stronger than a level 20 fighter in terms of raw strength. It’s just that he plays like a rogue that he comes off as “weak but skilled”.

That’s why I couldn’t never buy the idea that level 20 characters were superheroes or invincible.

 

[S'mon]

So I'm in the minority when I look at The Hulk who can lift 100 tons, then look at a 20th level fighter who without magic can lift 600 pounds?

I'd give the Hulk some kind of 'can lift a lot' Epic Boon, along with his STR 30.

Edit: Hulk the Barbarian-20 takes direct hits from heavy artillery. Cap the Fighter-20 does not take direct hits; he ducks, and he gets a little bruised and bloodied. Hulk's hp are all 'meat', Cap's are mostly 'skill'. That's how Super Heroes works as a genre.

Edit 2: 5e Barbarians can add their CON bonus to base AC. Hulk, like my son's dragonborn Barbarian PC Shieldbiter, has super high AC & insane hp from his high CON. For them, their skin is literally harder than steel. I don't think the typical human Barbarian literally has trebuchet rocks bouncing off him, though - the CON AC bonus must represent something different and more John McClane-ish.

 

[HammerMan]

I voted Spiderman but Black Panther/Captain America/Bucky would be fine for me (I will shorten that to supersoldier)

 

[jmartkdr2]

More reasons to see Thor as a 20th level fighter: without a magic weapon, he's badass but still subject to being beaten down by a horde of mooks. In Thor 1, he's grappled by orderlies (who aren't high CR guys), which makes sense: it took four of them, and even if he's got a +11 athletics to their +5, they're being helped and have to try a few times before they finally get him. They only need to win the opposed roll once. He then fails a con save vs sedative (unlucky on his part, because Indomitable gives him a couple tries) but once he's asleep he's down.

Later on we see him fully healed but unequipped vs a SHIELD Strike team (CR 5 or so each) - no one's trying to kill anyone but Thor is able to get through them without getting dropped, although he does need to work at it and is tired by the time he gets to Mjollnir (low hp) - and it's heavily implied that Hawkeye (level 20 ranger with a minor magic bow) could have taken him out - pretty easily at that point.

With Mjollnir (a legendary magic weapon at least), he's a threat to pretty much anyone, although there's a number of people who can still take him.

Now, I'm not 100% sure Thor is a fighter per se; he's got some barbarian-y traits, but maybe he's a custom subclass.

 

[HammerMan]

Hmm. Maybe. Maybe some kind of rogue/fighter multi-class to get the combination of fighting, stealth and spying?

almost all the street level heroes (not all) are fighter/monk/rogues that have some supernatural (weather in story or not) bonus.

 

[Willie the Duck]

I guess what I don't understand is why the leveling system doesn't already accomplish this goal. If the power fantasy of the group doesn't extend past the abilities you get at character level 5, they can just keep adventuring at character level 5.

Why do you need separate power level caps for a system that already has the tools to manage power levels?

Quite simply because a lot of people don't use levels that way*. For whatever reason, continued opportunity to advance in level is considered highly important to many-to-most players and also the concept of levels 1-20 (or 1-30 for 4e, 1-36 for BECMI) are considered important D&D concepts.
*and by all accounts, never did, given Gary and folks's attempts to reign in the power creep as early as the mid 70s.

Beyond that, why is one better than the other? We can have one system where a certain portion of the base doesn't use 1/3, half, or the majority of the content, or we can have multiple systems (possibly which branch off of a common initial core), each of which is targeted towards a specific play experience. It's not obvious why this idea I'm suggesting doesn't work, and these threads keep popping up suggests to me that the status quo isn't doing wonderfully.

 

[Gammadoodler]

So I'm in the minority when I look at The Hulk who can lift 100 tons, then look at a 20th level fighter who without magic can lift 600 pounds? That even with magic maxes out at less than half a ton? Or that The Hulk takes direct fire from heavy artillery without even flinching?

I get it. Fighters take on demons and dragons as part of a team. But they don't take out a massive warship by punching it. They don't toss tanks around like frisbees. They would die under a barrage from multiple chitauri warships instead of just being slightly miffed. That's just the MCU version of Hulk which is significantly less powerful than some comic book iterations, which frankly get a little bonkers.

Most high powered superheroes are in a completely different league to me. D&D is a different genre than superheroes. Could there be a "Mythic Heroes" D20 system? Sure. But it would be a different game.

The issue here is that you are taking the current level 20 fighter is and using that like it's the appropriate yardstick. The question is what should it be.

The Hulk might..might..be bit much, but there is plenty of room between Hulk power and D&D fighter power to make adjustments. The fighter can still be part of a team, even if they don't need to rely on Dr. Strange do all the meaningful work for them.

 

[Oofta]

I'd give the Hulk some kind of 'can lift a lot' Epic Boon, along with his STR 30.

If we assume strength 30 and large size somehow the lifting capacity would be 3,600 pounds. With powerful build that goes up to 7,200. That's 3.6 tons a tiny, tiny percent of The Hulk's MCU capacity guesstimate of 100 tons. Depending on which movie you use as a guide, Hulk can toss around tanks weighing over 50 tons.

That's one heck of an epic boon you're handing out especially since a 20th level fighter isn't even epic levels yet.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

I think Spider-Man is a good spot, way stronger than the normal superhumans, and can kinda fight the god tier guys, but in the end isn't quite at their level.

 

[Oofta]

More reasons to see Thor as a 20th level fighter: without a magic weapon, he's badass but still subject to being beaten down by a horde of mooks. In Thor 1, he's grappled by orderlies (who aren't high CR guys), which makes sense: it took four of them, and even if he's got a +11 athletics to their +5, they're being helped and have to try a few times before they finally get him. They only need to win the opposed roll once. He then fails a con save vs sedative (unlucky on his part, because Indomitable gives him a couple tries) but once he's asleep he's down.

Later on we see him fully healed but unequipped vs a SHIELD Strike team (CR 5 or so each) - no one's trying to kill anyone but Thor is able to get through them without getting dropped, although he does need to work at it and is tired by the time he gets to Mjollnir (low hp) - and it's heavily implied that Hawkeye (level 20 ranger with a minor magic bow) could have taken him out - pretty easily at that point.

With Mjollnir (a legendary magic weapon at least), he's a threat to pretty much anyone, although there's a number of people who can still take him.

Now, I'm not 100% sure Thor is a fighter per se; he's got some barbarian-y traits, but maybe he's a custom subclass.

I would just note that Thor levels up pretty significantly over the course of the movies. In the first movie he hadn't come into his true power and believed he needed Mjolnir.