D&D General Should magic be "mystical," unknowable, etc.? [Pick 2, no takebacks!]

[jmartkdr2]

I'm pretty flexible either way. I don't see it as a necessity for wizards to understand the underlying mechanics of magic to be able to cast spells or craft magic items, etc.

I would agree that whether the mechanics are knowable or not, societies would devote plenty of resources to make execution of magic more consistently effective. If it could be known, they'd try to know it. If it couldn't be known, they'd make records of what inputs were used and to what effects such that you'd have practical rules to follow to achieve the desired result.

To me, that falls under "knowing about magic." If they can reliably use it, because they understand how it works, it's not unknowable.

Unknowable magic would have unpredictable resuts because you don't know any of the rules possibly because there are no rules.) But if you know that combining these ingredients, saying these words and making these gestures make a fireball: you know about magic. If you know about magic and how to use it, it cannot be unknowable.

edit: All the above assumes that knowable or not, the output of the magic is more valuable than the resources used to achieve it.

 

[Fanaelialae]

This might be the point of confusion: how would you define "unknowable"?

Because to me, if you can predict how something will work, you know it, at least somewhat. If you can understand the rules well enough to predict how it will work in not-before-seen scenarios, then you know it pretty well. You don't need to understand it at the quantum level, or perfectly understand any aspect of it. If you know it somewhat, it's knowable. To be unknowable, you need to not know anything about it at all.

I say this because I don't find cars mysterious and unknowable just because I don't understand general relativity.

My definition of knowing is that you have to understand the why, not just the how. You don't have to understand the why perfectly (at the quantum level, as you put it) but you need a solid understanding how why it works, not just how to make it work. If you've learned how to fix your car's engine, but you can't extend that knowledge into fixing other engines, then you don't actually understand how an engine works, you've just figured out how to fix your particular engine. Which isn't really knowing (or, at best, is an extremely narrow and limited case of knowing).

If your definition is that you just need to understand how (ie, you repeatedly try random things until you get the result you want, and then just repeat that) then, sure, I agree that D&D magic is by definition knowable.

That's a really low bar though. That's like someone claiming that because they can brute force a combination lock by trying every possible combination, they know how combination locks work and how to circumvent them. If that's the extent of their understanding, then I would argue that they do not understand combination locks.

And while we can certainly combination locks in the RW, it's not hard to imagine a "combination lock" designed by a godlike intelligence that is simply beyond the capacity of lesser intelligences to comprehend, and hence, unknowable to those lesser intelligences.

 

[Gammadoodler]

To me, that falls under "knowing about magic." If they can reliably use it, because they understand how it works, it's not unknowable.

Unknowable magic would have unpredictable resuts because you don't know any of the rules possibly because there are no rules.) But if you know that combining these ingredients, saying these words and making these gestures make a fireball: you know about magic. If you know about magic and how to use it, it cannot be unknowable.

I see it like the button next to an elevator. You push the button and sometimes the doors open right away, and sometimes you have to wait for the doors to open (also sometimes the doors open even when you don't push the button). Maybe the doors normally open faster between the hours of 2 and 4pm and slower at 9 am, 12 and 5 pm, but could be slow during those times too.

With that set of information, what do you "know" about how the button and the elevator doors work?

I can think of wizards as operating with this level of understanding. They know that if they press the button something will happen eventually but also that unexpected results may occur (e.g the door opening without pressing the button). Maybe they develop schedules to try and optimize the fastest result, maybe those work consistently, maybe they don't.

 

[Micah Sweet]

My definition of knowing is that you have to understand the why, not just the how. You don't have to understand the why perfectly (at the quantum level, as you put it) but you need a solid understanding how why it works, not just how to make it work. If you've learned how to fix your car's engine, but you can't extend that knowledge into fixing other engines, then you don't actually understand how an engine works, you've just figured out how to fix your particular engine. Which isn't really knowing (or, at best, is an extremely narrow and limited case of knowing).

If your definition is that you just need to understand how (ie, you repeatedly try random things until you get the result you want, and then just repeat that) then, sure, I agree that D&D magic is by definition knowable.

That's a really low bar though. That's like someone claiming that because they can brute force a combination lock by trying every possible combination, they know how combination locks work and how to circumvent them. If that's the extent of their understanding, then I would argue that they do not understand combination locks.

And while we can certainly combination locks in the RW, it's not hard to imagine a "combination lock" designed by a godlike intelligence that is simply beyond the capacity of lesser intelligences to comprehend, and hence, unknowable to those lesser intelligences.

Begging your pardon, but doesn't everyone have the same potential intelligence now?

 

[Minigiant]

The thing is that everyone can understand science to a degree. But the principle of D&D is that only some people can understand and manipulate magic.

Read my whole post.

Just like science, magic can be someone gets part of but barely a quarter of the whole. I like magic where magic is an barely understood science. Wizards know some knobs but not others and some parts don't makesense because most elements are not discovered yet.

"Fulmia Dododun Amascar is the magic word for fireball. We know Fulmia is fire. We don't know what Amascar means. Some mage traded his soul to a death god to learn the word. We lucked out that Dododun is close to an elven cuss word. That was an accident."

 

[Micah Sweet]

Read my whole post.

Just like science, magic can be someone gets part of but barely a quarter of the whole. I like magic where magic is an barely understood science. Wizards know some knobs but not others and some parts don't makesense because most elements are not discovered yet.

"Fulmia Dododun Amascar is the magic word for fireball. We know Fulmia is fire. We don't know what Amascar means. Some mage traded his soul to a death god to learn the word. We lucked out that Dododun is close to an elven cuss word. That was an accident."

I absolutely hate everything about that idea. Not even sure why.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Begging your pardon, but doesn't everyone have the same potential intelligence now?

You think everyone has the same potential intelligence as a fictional godlike intelligence?

 

[MGibster]

You think everyone has the same potential intelligence as a fictional godlike intelligence?

When you get used to posting on a place like ENWorld, filled with attractive vivacious individuals with godlike intelligence, it's easy to think of the rest of the world in the same light.

 

[AtomicPope]

When you get used to posting on a place like ENWorld, filled with attractive vivacious individuals with godlike intelligence, it's easy to think of the rest of the world in the same light.

As someone who takes public transportation to work I can assure you that's not the case.

 

[MGibster]

As someone who takes public transportation to work I can assure you that's not the case.

No fair comparing the underworld to the place where the day walkers dwell.